J-15 carrier-borne fighter thread

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Do we know if the picture was taken at
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No way to visually confirm but the article from yankeesama claims that it was taken at a carrier-based training facility, so Huludao would be the most likely possibility.

The
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“熟悉的陌生人”亮相舰载机基地,是“旧情复萌”还是“甘为嫁衣”?
Original 扬基帧察站 扬基帧察站 Yesterday

最近央视播出了大型电视纪录片《我们一起走过——致敬改革开放40周年》。相信大多数军迷们最关注的,还是周末播出的第十五集《强军战歌最嘹亮》。这一集长度35分钟,很多新素材新画面(包括很多珍贵的较高清历史画面)都不错,运镜和特效也比较用心,值得一看。

在片中讲述人民海军的发展时,从无到有的舰载战斗机部队自然又成了宣传的重点。由于“辽宁”舰现在也才刚结束坞修不久,还停在大连造船厂的码头上,加上这种大型纪录片的拍摄周期一般不短,所以关于舰载机部队的素材,更多是在位于兴城的舰载机训练基地拍摄的。

之前咱也说过,在没有航母的日子里,想胡诌一点航母的动态,难免有些“强行分析”之嫌;所以如果仅凭上面这些内容弄个大新闻,那我当然是拒绝的。幸好幸好,在舰载机训练基地的机棚里,我们发现了一架值得胡诌的“熟悉的陌生人”。

双座特征很明显,强化的双轮前起落架也排除了歼-11BS的可能性,理论上能来捣乱的就剩下歼-16了。然而和歼-15一样为了航母起降而加肥加大的襟翼和副翼,这特征还是明确指向双座歼-15的;再加上翼尖是向下的挂架而非庞大的电子战吊舱(歼-15电战也不至于这么快就来这儿),所以这货是久未谋面的歼-15S双座型舰载战斗机,妥妥的。

自打这飞机2012年11月首飞之后,这六年来啊是图少得很、消息也少得很;别说航母了,就连舰载机训练基地此前也没见它来过,要不然咱们也没必要对着截图,拿别的双座“侧卫”瞎合计半天——双座舰载机出现在舰载机训练基地,明明是双倍的快乐,可是......

......怎么就不能早点呢!

自打舰载机部队正式成立,五年来啊,我军首支舰载机部队的骨干,都已经靠着“海山鹰”和歼-15凑合训练出来了......千言万语化作一句话,你咋菜赖nia!

好吧,虽然晚了点,但有歼-15S来帮着训练训练也不是坏事。大概也许可能......等到“辽宁”舰回到部队继续使用的时候,歼-15S会配合搞点舰机匹配试验,也算是物尽其用。但歼-15单座型眼看都要更新换代了,现有的歼-15S还有必要继续生产吗?

所以结合到歼-15电战的调度模型已经登上国产航母这事儿,咱有一个大胆的推论:歼-15S来到舰载机训练基地,还有另一大作用——让舰载机部队的飞行员提前感受一下,串列双座的歼-15飞起来是啥感觉,这样等到真正的歼-15电战交付之后,也能减少适应新机型的时间。


无论如何,咱们的双座“飞鲨”家族以后肯定是串列双座了。然而毛子当年搞双座苏-33时,想法却是搞一个和苏-34座舱布局相似的苏-33UB。自打1986年苏联海军和航空工业部提出双座苏-27K的研制要求之后,苏-27总设计师西蒙诺夫就觉得,并列双座方案是保证教员和学员进近时视野相同的良药。

为了证明这一逻辑,西蒙诺夫凭借他在苏联航空工业部的地位,让1990年4月才首飞的苏-34原型机T-10V-1在三个月之后就转场到位于萨基的舰载机训练基地,并从7月底到8月初,在正忙于比较苏-27K和米格-29K孰优孰劣的“第比利斯”上进行了几次模拟进近。随着照片被塔斯社公开,不仅西方国家就此认为T-10V-1就是苏联新型舰载教练机,就连戈尔巴乔夫看了都专门作出批示称赞。

尽管由于官方文件中从来没有批准T-10V-1参加舰载机与航母的联合测试,从程序上说这是绝对的“以权谋私”,所以米格设计局总师贝利亚科夫对此十分愤怒,航母回港之后就去航空工业部举报西蒙诺夫了。然而戈尔巴乔夫都表态资瓷了,航空工业部领导自然也觉得西蒙诺夫这是“壮我国威,强我军威”,除了保证不把T-10V-1的这次“插队”正式记录在案之外,并没有任何要批判一番的意思。

大家刚开心没多久,苏联就解体了,按道理说苏-33双座型基本也就没啥必要搞了。然而到了1995年,大概是因为“库兹涅佐夫”能出海了,俄罗斯就觉得自己又成了能玩得起航母的国家了;于是乎把一架苏-33原型机调回共青城厂,按照苏-33UB的方案进行了改装,又把苏-33的静力试验机也照此进行改装(这么看还是穷),这样七七八八准备到1999年4月,苏-33UB就首飞了。

进入21世纪,随着库罗耶多夫掌管俄罗斯海军,要建6艘航母之类的“大海军”豪言层出不穷;为此造势,苏-33UB连续参加三届莫斯科航展一展身姿。那阵正赶上“瓦良格”刚拖回大连造船厂,所以当时就有传言说咱们要引进苏-33UB,甚至还有人说,苏-33UB就是为咱们研制的......

现如今自然不会有人说引进这个已经死透了的玩意儿了,但除了座舱布局之外,苏-33UB还有些别的设计值得玩味。比如在把前翼、机翼和平尾面积均放大之后,苏-33UB将机翼折叠转轴外扩到平尾尖之外,这样一来平尾就无需折叠,也不会导致折叠后飞机的高度难以塞进航母机库。

虽然这增大了飞机的停放面积,不过当时俄海军的航母规划那也是“熊心勃勃”,大一点不算事儿;而且这样改进之后,在降低了结构重量,保持平尾部分强度的同时,翼下非折叠区也多了一对重载挂点,使得舰载机挂弹整备工作更加容易。相比刚才说的那个鬼畜的“二次折叠”,这倒是体现当时俄罗斯舰载机运用经验丰富起来之后,设计思维上的一些变化。

我们的舰载机使用经验,也在慢慢丰富起来。四代舰载机出现之后,未来的国产航母还需要使用歼-15的改进型与之配合使用一段时间。如果航母的空间足够大,那么需要与四代舰载机配合执行对地对海打击任务,携带大型弹药的歼-15是否也会进行类似的改进,将是分析中国航母作战使命的一个有趣细节。

In summary, he thinks that the emergence of the twin-seat J-15S might be to do with training pilots for the J-15D. Could someone provide a better summary or translation of the bolded parts?
 

mys_721tx

Junior Member
Registered Member
... Su-33UB's wing-folding hinge has moved further outboard, beyond the edge of the elevator. With this change, the elevators no longer need to be folded and the aircraft height is reduced for.

... A pair of heavy hard-points is added under the non-folding section of the main wing. ...

Provided the hangar has sufficient space, J-15 will perform anti-ship/anti-surface strike missions along with 4th gen carrier based aircraft. Whether J-15 would adopt similar improvement would be an interesting detail to assess the Chinese carrier combat mission.
 

Dfangsaur

Junior Member
Registered Member
自打舰载机部队正式成立,五年来啊,我军首支舰载机部队的骨干,都已经靠着“海山鹰”和歼-15凑合训练出来了......千言万语化作一句话,你咋菜赖nia!

好吧,虽然晚了点,但有歼-15S来帮着训练训练也不是坏事。大概也许可能......等到“辽宁”舰回到部队继续使用的时候,歼-15S会配合搞点舰机匹配试验,也算是物尽其用。但歼-15单座型眼看都要更新换代了,现有的歼-15S还有必要继续生产吗?

所以结合到歼-15电战的调度模型已经登上国产航母这事儿,咱有一个大胆的推论:歼-15S来到舰载机训练基地,还有另一大作用——让舰载机部队的飞行员提前感受一下,串列双座的歼-15飞起来是啥感觉,这样等到真正的歼-15电战交付之后,也能减少适应新机型的时间。

It's been five years since the establishment of carrier borne fighter fleet. The core members of the fleet have been more or less trained with the help of “海山鹰”(JL-9 carrier borne variant" and J-15. In short what took J-15s so long to start appearing?(rhetorical question)

Although it's a little late, having J-15s help with training is not a bad thing. Perhaps... when Liaoning returns to regular use (as opposed to as a training carrier I guess), J-15S will serve another function -- let the pilots experience tandem seat J-15 variants in advance. This way, when the real J-15D has been delivered, it will take shorter to get used to the new plane.

如果航母的空间足够大,那么需要与四代舰载机配合执行对地对海打击任务,携带大型弹药的歼-15是否也会进行类似的改进,将是分析中国航母作战使命的一个有趣细节。

If the carrier has enough room, future carrier borne fighters will need to work along side 4th gen carrier borne fighters (Chinese 4th gen) to carry out surface attack missions. Whether future J-15's which carry large amounts of ammunition will undergo similar modification will be an interesting detail to look for when analyzing future Chinese carrier operation duties.

By modification, he meant the SU-33UD modification to base Su-33, "把前翼、机翼和平尾面积均放大之后,苏-33UB将机翼折叠转轴外扩到平尾尖之外,这样一来平尾就无需折叠,也不会导致折叠后飞机的高度难以塞进航母机库。"
Su-33UB's wing-folding hinge has moved further outboard, beyond the edge of the elevator. With this change, the elevators no longer need to be folded and the aircraft height is reduced for.

... A pair of heavy hard-points is added under the non-folding section of the main wing. ...
Exactly that
 

Dfangsaur

Junior Member
Registered Member
su-33ub_024.jpg

Here is a side by side comparison of Su33UB and SU33. I know these are trumpeter model kits, but I it's a good representation of the location of which the wings are folded. SU-33UB has its hinges further out along the wings, thus the horizontal stabilizers don't need to be folded. Wouldn't this be too big for a carrier though? Flankers are already massive. SU-33UB is like a good 7m wider when folded
 

mys_721tx

Junior Member
Registered Member
su-33ub_024.jpg

Here is a side by side comparison of Su33UB and SU33. I know these are trumpeter model kits, but I it's a good representation of the location of which the wings are folded. SU-33UB has its hinges further out along the wings, thus the horizontal stabilizers don't need to be folded. Wouldn't this be too big for a carrier though? Flankers are already massive. SU-33UB is like a good 7m wider when folded

Su-33's wing span is about 14m. Su-33UB being 7m wider doesn't sound right. According to the diagram in this
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, Su-33 is 7.4m wide after folding, F-18E/F is 9.32m wide after folding, and Rafale is 10m wide. Su-33UB probably won't be the widest bird ever put into a hangar.
 

Dfangsaur

Junior Member
Registered Member
Su-33's wing span is about 14m. Su-33UB being 7m wider doesn't sound right. According to the diagram in this
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, Su-33 is 7.4m wide after folding, F-18E/F is 9.32m wide after folding, and Rafale is 10m wide. Su-33UB probably won't be the widest bird ever put into a hangar.
I just eyed balled it, guess i was way off.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
It's been five years since the establishment of carrier borne fighter fleet. The core members of the fleet have been more or less trained with the help of “海山鹰”(JL-9 carrier borne variant" and J-15. In short what took J-15s so long to start appearing?(rhetorical question)

Although it's a little late, having J-15s help with training is not a bad thing. Perhaps... when Liaoning returns to regular use (as opposed to as a training carrier I guess), J-15S will serve another function -- let the pilots experience tandem seat J-15 variants in advance. This way, when the real J-15D has been delivered, it will take shorter to get used to the new plane.



If the carrier has enough room, future carrier borne fighters will need to work along side 4th gen carrier borne fighters (Chinese 4th gen) to carry out surface attack missions. Whether future J-15's which carry large amounts of ammunition will undergo similar modification will be an interesting detail to look for when analyzing future Chinese carrier operation duties.

By modification, he meant the SU-33UD modification to base Su-33, "把前翼、机翼和平尾面积均放大之后,苏-33UB将机翼折叠转轴外扩到平尾尖之外,这样一来平尾就无需折叠,也不会导致折叠后飞机的高度难以塞进航母机库。"

Exactly that

Much appreciated!
 

chickenhero3830

New Member
Registered Member
i say the J-15 is far too long. its 4 metres longer than f/a 18. if they want to park more on the deck of a carrier with a significant smaller island then then may have to resort to J 31
 

Mirabo

Junior Member
Registered Member
i say the J-15 is far too long. its 4 metres longer than f/a 18. if they want to park more on the deck of a carrier with a significant smaller island then then may have to resort to J 31

By this point, the general consensus seems to be that the J-15 has filled its role as a temporary solution, and that the PLANAF is looking to acquire a next-generation carrier-borne fighter. Whichever aircraft will succeed the J-15 likely won't be the J-31, but will likely still be produced by Shenyang.

The J-15 is big, but its large size isn't only reason to induct a new model of aircraft. If the PLAN wants to compete with the F-35, then they'll need to come up with something of the same generation, at the very least, so an upgrade in all aspects is required.
 
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