Trade War with China

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Anlsvrthng

Captain
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I went through few times about the semi capability numbers,and as it looks like the word stopped around 22nm for CPUs , anything beyond that giving marginal speed benefits, and the cost minimum is now around 90/45nm, no smaller.

The later nodes beyond 90nm showing drastic cost increase per transistor, apart from the 100 million devices /tool region. And the EUV doesn't help.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Here is an article about the importance of A1 via JSch
This guy Tidalwave is clueless and read too much in western propaganda Most SOC company are built by fabless company. Qualcomm does not have their own foundry instead rely on TSMC The integrated Chip company like Intel is going the way of Dodo bird. Only Samsung has integrated fab the rest are Fabless
"

I know people are going to bring up.Qualcomm.
Well Qualcomm has a division of process engineers that practically live inside TSMC, they work with TSMC engineers to fine tune the process to best fit to Qualcomm especially the ones with analog functions. Generic TSMC process may not be optimal therefore adjustment are needed. Qualcomm able to do that because their process engineers have access to TSMC facilities.

No, mainland companies like Huawei , not allowed into TSMC facilities!
So, what they end up with is generic vanilla recipe for digital CPU chip, like Kirin. As long as you doing only CPU you are fine with TSMC.

But things with analog functions such Silicon photonics for fiber optic which both ZTE and Huawei don't have , that one you really need you own fab.very specialized product require special process and TSMC do not provide those.



People are reading too much into China AI propaganda.

It's a luxury one does NOT need to have. Without AI, it won't be optimal but business as usual.

But without critical parts, ZTE and Jinhua will immediately die!!

I advise people to take it easy on AI opium, it's not healthy
 
Last edited:
Sep 20, 2018
... I'll say something else, actually repeat what I said in a bar this week: if this trade war escalated, China would slash the export of rare-earth elements

cheers
and here's the DefenseOne story from today:
China Is Beating the US in the Rare-Earths Game
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It’s time for the administration to use its powers to preserve America’s access to vital defense materials.

How to view China’s
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to limit domestic production of rare earths, those 16 elements that make our cellphones and smart bombs work? It’s the latest move in a game that began before the United States realized it was even playing, that has grown more complex than U.S. leaders realize, and that is nearing a very unfortunate ending.

The game began in earnest in 1980, when the United States made two moves that gave its opponent an advantage it has never relinquished. One was industrial: Molycorp, then the country’s largest rare earth mining and processing company, began transferring its processing technology to China (as detailed by Boston University professor Julie Michelle Klinger in
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). The other was regulatory: although rare earths are most easily and cheaply obtained as a byproduct of mining for other minerals, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and the International Atomic Energy Agency in 1980 more or less inadvertently placed this activity under the same regulations as mining nuclear fuel. Within a decade and a half, all U.S. producers of heavy rare earths shut down. Today, China gets most of its rare earths as a no-cost byproduct of iron ore mining, while the U.S. runs one expensive, low-value specialty mine: the
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in California.

Over the following two decades, China raced to cement its global dominance in the field. It established the world’s largest rare earth research facility, a development that generally escaped U.S. notice, save in a
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of the Ames National Laboratory rare earth newsletter. Chinese researchers filed for their first international rare earth patent in 1983; within fourteen years, the total number of Chinese patent filings in the field exceeded that of the U.S., which had been working in the field since 1950. And Beijing was using its leverage as the world’s top producer of rare earths to acquire or import U.S. technology companies specializing in metals, alloys,
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, and integrated rare earth components.

Perhaps our worst blunder came in 1995, when Congress allowed China to buy Magnequench, the only U.S. producer of magnets for our most advanced guided missiles; and GA Powders, a producer of rare earth magnetic powders. Acquired by the family of Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping, Magnequench shut its U.S. facility seven years later, ending America’s ability to produce magnets key to missiles and other weapons.

But the mistakes didn’t stop there. In 1998, the U.S. National Defense Stockpile
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the last of our nation’s strategic reserve of rare earths,
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all rare earths previously held by the Energy Department. That same year, Rhodia Incorporated, the last integrated U.S. producer of rare earth metals and alloys, closed its rare earth separation facility in Texas, announced plans to build a new one in China, and signed a deal with Baotou Rare Earth Development Zone to construct a metal and alloy facility in Mongolia.

By 2002, Molycorp closed the last rare earth mine in the United States. It restarted operations around 2010,
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, and restarted once more this year.

Our leadership failed to note any of this because they did not understand the strategic significance of these materials.

In August, China announced that it would reduce rare earth separation and smelting by 36 percent through the end of the year, putting it on track to produce 45,000 tons of the various elements — only enough for domestic production, with none left for export. The word reached most Western ears only last week, when Adamas Intelligence, a corporate advisory firm that specializes in rare earths and other metals,
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about it. An Adamas analyst said that the cost of one rare earth mineral, PrNd oxide, is on track to double within next five years. Overall, Reuters reports, “Chinese exports typically supply around 80 percent of the globe’s rare earth needs, about 156,000 tonnes annually.”

Reuters noted that “the U.S. military is worried about China’s dominance of the rare earths market, calling it a ‘significant and growing risk,’ according to the Pentagon’s recently released industrial-base
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.

But there appears to be little concern evinced — at least in public — by the White House, the Departments of Energy or Commerce, or Congress. Instead, U.S. policy makers appear to be counting on a quick ramp-up of private mining operations to cover the absence of Chinese rare earth concentrates and oxides. Regrettably, mining cannot solve the problem. To start with, mine permitting and development typically takes 7 to 10 years in the United States, according to
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. Moreover, no one is rushing to fund new rare earth mines.

But — and this is what few in the U.S. government appear to understand — China’s grip on the world’s rare earths is not limited to its 80-percent share of raw materials. It also
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that transform raw concentrates and oxides into useful forms: metals, alloys, magnets, garnets, and the like.

Apparently, the official U.S. plan is for the private sector to respond to the market opportunity. But in 2010, a U.S. Government Accountability Office
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concluded that developing the requisite metallurgical capabilities could take up to a decade and a half.

Will U.S. technology companies weather a 15-year supply disruption? No. Instead, they will move their factories, and all related technologies, to China. We know this, because
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. The target then was Japanese companies — which knuckled under to Chinese demands and sold or moved their factories to China.

This time it’s a global threat. And it’s a threat that shows just how deft China has become in coercing the world. After the Reuters report hit the wires, China
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, suggesting that they simply reweighted the output quota, and nothing has actually changed. That’s what happened with Japan eight years ago; there is little evidence that any single Japanese customer was actually “embargoed.” China’s actions mostly amounted to the threat and some shipping delays. Their effects were no less substantial.

Congress has failed to act or even understand the underlying issues. It is time for the Administration to use its powers under the
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to establish a fully integrated resource value chain that can guarantee our technology and defense industry delivery of rare earth metals, alloys, magnets and other value added materials.

Failure to do so will help China pull our remaining tech sector into its hand and deepen our defense industries’ dependence.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Also people here so misinformed. They only think the smaller the better such as China SMIC has only 28nm, and next better one would be 14nm.

Now, Fujian Jinhua is doing 32nm DRAM and US has banned equipment to it and Jinhua is dying!

You would ask why not Jinhua use SMIC more advanced 28nm?

Nah, Apple and oranges. They are completely different process. One is for generic digital chip process and another for DRAM memory process.

Different products requires different processes!!

It's meaningless for people only talking 28nm and 14nm for CPU manufacturing when China don't even have 32nm and 45nm process setup for DRAM, Silicon photonics, and other sensors.

Also, that lil wisdom man is something else he got nothing but biggest mouth, calling this guy is smart and that guy is stupid. Man, he's such a bore. No useful knowledge whatsoever!
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
@tidalwave

If the govt thought it was a serious threat, they would have banned exports to US companies in retaliation.

Small companies come and go all the time. These guys who tried to undercut Chinese industry by importing American parts got what was coming to them. Local companies will take over the market shares and create more jobs.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
@tidalwave

If the govt thought it was a serious threat, they would have banned exports to US companies in retaliation.

Small companies come and go all the time. These guys who tried to undercut Chinese industry by importing American parts got what was coming to them. Local companies will take over the market shares and create more jobs.

China central overnment too scared to go after US companies afraid Trump would raise tariff for the remaining goods.

Eight now, China government seriously indulging in AI opium, fooling itself into believing it's on path to self sufficiency.

China are in current shithole, cause their advisors gave bad advices and therefore lousy policy.

Had they got the right policy 20 years ago, China already be self sufficient by now. Their tech would not leading edge but l100% self sufficient. There would not be case of ZTE , Jinhua, etc.
 
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localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
China central overnment too scared to go after US companies afraid Trump would raise tariff for the remaining goods.

Eight now, China government seriously indulging in AI opium, fooling itself into believing it's on path to self sufficiency.

China are in current shithole, cause their advisors gave bad advices and therefore lousy policy.

Had they got the right policy 20 years ago, China already be self sufficient by now. Their tech would not leading edge but l100% self sufficient. There would not be case of ZTE , Jinhua, etc.

had china abided to US policies 20 years ago and let Western firms roam free:

1. China would end up like chaotic India
2. Lost Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan (completely)
3. Maybe even turned into smaller countries by province.
4. There would have never been a Tencent, Baidu, Alibaba, ...
5. Google, Amazon, Apple, Walmart, and blah blah blah would loot the shit out of the country and provide like 1 million jobs in total.

No company would ever share its state of the art trade secrets with other companies let alone political allies.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
had china abided to US policies 20 years ago and let Western firms roam free:

1. China would end up like chaotic India
2. Lost Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan (completely)
3. Maybe even turned into smaller countries by province.
4. There would have never been a Tencent, Baidu, Alibaba, ...
5. Google, Amazon, Apple, Walmart, and blah blah blah would loot the shit out of the country and provide like 1 million jobs in total.

No company would ever share its state of the art trade secrets with other companies let alone political allies.

I am never a promoter of letting western firms run wild in China.

Had China implement the correct policy (I already thought about things that they haven't done and things they should done differently) they would be self sufficient technologically by now and US would Not even know about it!
Now, China is not technologically sufficient and its trade relationship with US ruptured. Stuck in no man's land.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
What policies would have been better?
The big guy comes to you and gives you 2 choices: Follow our blueprint for your country's future and we'll give you tech which you will rely on for the foreseeable future. Don't listen to us and we'll give you a hard time and rally your neighbors against you.
You can't be self-sufficient without letting foreign firms in and teaching your people the knowledge. Asian tigers success was largely due to US support, there wouldn't be a TSMC, Toyota, or Samsung without the US. However, they all ended up losing a lot of their sovereignty.

If the the world had free reign on the Chinese internet and media, breaking down the country would have been simple. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Russia, and internal Chinese factions would have all joined in. I'm not saying this is good or bad because we didn't go down this route, but from the CCP's perspective this was not a risk they could take. Chinese people are largely ignorant and uneducated.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
What policies would have been better?
The big guy comes to you and gives you 2 choices: Follow our blueprint for your country's future and we'll give you tech which you will rely on for the foreseeable future. Don't listen to us and we'll give you a hard time and rally your neighbors against you.
You can't be self-sufficient without letting foreign firms in and teaching your people the knowledge. Asian tigers success was largely due to US support, there wouldn't be a TSMC, Toyota, or Samsung without the US. However, they all ended up losing a lot of their sovereignty.

If the the world had free reign on the Chinese internet and media, breaking down the country would have been simple. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Russia, and internal Chinese factions would have all joined in. I'm not saying this is good or bad because we didn't go down this route, but from the CCP's perspective this was not a risk they could take. Chinese people are largely ignorant and uneducated.
Neither. There are better policies out there
 
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