Trade War with China

Status
Not open for further replies.

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
the only people concerned in any way with the trade war are farmer's, and manufacturers who have taken advantage of China's "cheap labor",, those manufacturers will have to "pony up", and pay someone else more, as for the farmer's, once China starts to seriously import those smaller, less productive soybeans??,, well, lets just say China is going to missing a cleaner larger soybean, as much as farmer's are going to missing the Chinese market...

to say anyone in the US is "deathly afraid" is nonsense, and YES, I do own a family farm and yes, this will affect my bottom line.! I don't know Jura, is everyone in the EU "deathly afraid"?

there are a few people who are concerned? but the President does have an "end game", so lets see how things are going? at the end of the 4th quarter??

I will say this, I'm NOT in favor of high taxes or higher tariffs, but I am in favor of more equitable trade practices,, and the President is right, we do get "jacked around" way to much.......

but if you go out on the street in Houston and ask your neighbors about China 2025 agenda??? are you seriously going to tell me that anyone you talk to will have any other response than, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
Exactly, Trump and his team used trade surplus as an excuse for average Americans because average folks dont care anything else. But deep down they have their own agenda.

In trade Negotiation, Trump and his team asked for end of state subsidies for high tech development and recognition of US IP protection in China.

Robert Lighthizer is the chief Architect in attacking China industry policy and stop it from tech advancement. And hollowing out China industries through tariff, move them elsewhere is Peter Navarro agenda. Each one has subtle difference.

Trump mainly concerned about trade imbalance, but his crooked hawk advisors attach those things to the execution of the plan.

You are right that average folks in US don't care China industrial plan but US policy makers and think tank are deadly serious about this.
 
Last edited:

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think China will join the semiconductor party at the very end of it.

My PC has ten years old cpu, made on 45 nm, and the new 10nm parts are two times faster than my old clunker.

So, the limits of basic physic kicked in thirteen years ago, and not there is no real advancements any more in the basic semi manufacturing processes.
The new dell top end laptop slower than the previous generation in the same range. It is smaller, lasting longer, and slower : /
The speed increase happens now with a snails speed.

The new semi industry will only increase the trade surplus, and suppress the Chinese personal consumption further.
So, it will go to the opposite direction than the official direction.
Only consumers electronics require leading edge tech but large number of industrial control components and military components still using older generation of tech.

Because of their proven track record , alot of China industry control and military tech use US components.

China just need to be bold, design the parts and use it in real application. Growing pain will be part of it. It's changing of mindset be the most important, willing to take chance on self designed parts with little or no track record.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
the only people concerned in any way with the trade war are farmer's, and manufacturers who have taken advantage of China's "cheap labor",, those manufacturers will have to "pony up", and pay someone else more, as for the farmer's, once China starts to seriously import those smaller, less productive soybeans??,, well, lets just say China is going to missing a cleaner larger soybean, as much as farmer's are going to missing the Chinese market...

to say anyone in the US is "deathly afraid" is nonsense, and YES, I do own a family farm and yes, this will affect my bottom line.! I don't know Jura, is everyone in the EU "deathly afraid"?

there are a few people who are concerned? but the President does have an "end game", so lets see how things are going? at the end of the 4th quarter??

I will say this, I'm NOT in favor of high taxes or higher tariffs, but I am in favor of more equitable trade practices,, and the President is right, we do get "jacked around" way to much.......

but if you go out on the street in Houston and ask your neighbors about China 2025 agenda??? are you seriously going to tell me that anyone you talk to will have any other response than, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????

Those soybeans are for feeding those pigs in China and for manufacturing NOT human consumption. How many red republicans people in Houston much less the entire USA even know what
"Made in China 2025" really is? Underestimate China at your own peril. And NO...Trump is not your hero to bring back the good ole days again to America. That time has already passed.

The three steps

They lay out three clear steps: by 2025, by 2035 and by the centennial of creation of the Peoples’ Republic of China in 2049. By 2025 China plans to be a “major manufacturing power,” ten years after onset of China 2025. For that the plan is that China will have consolidated its manufacturing power, increased manufacturing digitalization, master core technologies and become competitive in areas such as high-speed rail or other areas where China is already a global leader, while improving production quality. Energy use and pollutant levels will reach that of advanced industrial countries.

Step 2 by 2035 sees China manufacturing reach an “intermediate level among world manufacturing powers,” with greatly improved innovation ability to make key breakthroughs and “significantly increase overall competitiveness.”

Then in Step 3, by the 100-year anniversary in 2049, China expects to “become the leader among the world’s manufacturing powers. We will have the capability to lead innovation and possess competitive advantages in major manufacturing areas, and will develop advanced technology and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.”
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Right now, Trump enjoys huge bipartisan support from both Republican and Democrat, not so much about having hope of Trump bring US to the glory days but as the role of a wild , uncontrollable destroyer, go out to F up China current trajectory rise to power. Once that's done, Trump is not needed anymore they can have a normal human being for president so US can go back to have good term with its allies.
 
Last edited:

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
There are three photo-lithography machine tool manufacturers in the world. None of them are in China. China is presently forced to use machine tools two generations behind the leading edge tools. This means China will never be competitive at the highest end of the semiconductor market. Unless they develop their own machine tools sector which they have shown so far no interest in doing. So China will only be able to manufacture low cost older generation chips with little economic significance.

They can design their own chips and manufacture them in the West like Huawei is currently doing for example. But this means they will be vulnerable to trade sanctions.

The trade war has little effect on China capability to develop cutting edge semiconductors.

The technology hasn't improved lot in the past ten years, even if the US strop to supply equipment they can catch up relatively little time.

In ten years time China military will has equivalent space assets like the US, and in radar/ electronics technology there will be only minimal gap between them.

The biggest danger is to over-invest into the semiconductor manufacturing, but I am afraid China doing exactly that.

Now the buzzword is the reliability in the semi industry.
And that doesn't need advanced equipment, rather than a lot of validation.

MLendPattersonISSCC18.png
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
LOL! yesterday in a bar we talked about China and the message would be it's too late to be afraid, LOL will give you just one example:

the last sentence in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"In September 2015,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
bought the team."

it's like as if the Chinese owned if you know what I mean

what matters is their investments, exports etc. will only get higher

one more example: a guy who was in that bar had recently ordered from China a bicycle bell for less than one US$, everything ('shipping and handling') included, the bell's OK, delivered after a week or so ... here the price of a similar bell would like five (?) dollars ... so yeah, it is scary

plus check what I'll post right below:

What to be afraid for ? Think of new capital new management method, tie in to belt and road initiative. REsulting in more employment, and more business See what happened to Pireaus
But of course you have to work hard No more 1 month vacation, No more excessive benefit like pension once you reach 50
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
the only people concerned in any way with the trade war are farmer's, and manufacturers who have taken advantage of China's "cheap labor",, those manufacturers will have to "pony up", and pay someone else more, as for the farmer's, once China starts to seriously import those smaller, less productive soybeans??,, well, lets just say China is going to missing a cleaner larger soybean, as much as farmer's are going to missing the Chinese market...

to say anyone in the US is "deathly afraid" is nonsense, and YES, I do own a family farm and yes, this will affect my bottom line.! I don't know Jura, is everyone in the EU "deathly afraid"?

there are a few people who are concerned? but the President does have an "end game", so lets see how things are going? at the end of the 4th quarter??

I will say this, I'm NOT in favor of high taxes or higher tariffs, but I am in favor of more equitable trade practices,, and the President is right, we do get "jacked around" way to much.......

but if you go out on the street in Houston and ask your neighbors about China 2025 agenda??? are you seriously going to tell me that anyone you talk to will have any other response than, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
We'll stick to those nice lil' natural soybeans over the big US "pig feed" GMO soybeans LOL Don't worry your kind ol' heart for us, Brat!

But clearly, you have not been reading the tech news... or any news?? "Deathly afraid" is an understatement; have you even read Trump's major "demand" for China to defund Made in China 2025? That's actually the biggest roadblock to trade talks; China can buy more things, close the trade gap (of US printed fiat money), but we will never stop our technological advance and that's got DC unable to make a deal. You haven't come armed with the proper knowledge, Brat, and you're talking to the wrong people. Ask in Silicon Valley, America's tech hub, if they know about Made in China 2025; don't just pick people who think college is for the "fancy city folks" LOL. Hell, if you went to the homeless shelter or county jail, you can talk about the trade war or technology in general and hear that same, "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?" ignorance you find so reassuring!
 
Last edited:

xiabonan

Junior Member
Until China realizes, like Germany and Japan did in the XIXth century, that they cannot continue being industry leaders in the long run without a robust machine tools industry of their own they will always be vulnerable. All it takes is several years of machine tool import sanctions and their industry will fall far behind the West. The same thing happened to the Soviet Union after WW2. The Soviets typically fell behind in industry to the West because of this. It also had military implications. For example their electronics industry was always behind so they could neither compete in terms of modern radars or control systems without being quite creative with the technology they had. At one point, for example, the USA even forced Japan to stop selling advanced 9 axis CNC milling machines to the Soviet Union, because they used them to manufacture less noisy propellers for the Alfa attack submarines.

Links:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

You'd have to be so ignorant to say that China does not understand the importance of building up a robust machine tool industry. Do you still imagine China only produce clothes, toys, and other cheap labour intensive products?

Machinery and electronics products are now top Chinese export products, and China has been the number 1 producer of CNC machines in terms of total manufacturing value for years now.

In terms of CNC machines, China has completely dominated the low-end market, which is a market that's still rapidly growing both domestically and internationally, and China has been gaining a strong foothold in high-end CNC machines in recent years too.

This phenomenon is not limited to CNC machines. It is everywhere. On the low end, Chinese companies dominate and drive away foreign competitors, and on the medium to high end, some Chinese firms are starting to gain a foothold, mastering some key technologies and learning to do some others, and on the ultra-high-end, a number of Western firms still dominate.

However, as much as desire independence and control of key technologies, we also know that we could only improve by learning and trading with others.

This path has proven to be successful. I think people here should be most familiar with the achievements of this policy. Merely 20 years ago China could barely build any new modern warships, fighter jets, transport plane, and submarines. Today we have them all and we can build them all, and we achieved these milestones under constant Western sanctions for military related products and machinery.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Yup this guy is very ignorant China is now the leader in CNC. the largest component of Chinese export is electric machinery
He is behind 20 years maybe hiding in the rock!
And China did make 7 axis CNC to machine propeller I had the picture but lost it due to crash
 
Last edited:

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
I was just giving an example. But China still doesn't have any photo-lithography machine tool manufacturers. Like I said, there is a total of THREE manufacturers worldwide. Europe, the United States, and Japan. With the Japanese vendor being way behind the other two. All the semiconductor factories the Chinese are building will rely on those tools. Due to sanctions the Chinese can only buy tools which are two generations behind as is. China is still behind even in process engineering, which isn't exactly simple either. Even with all the IP theft SMIC has done to TSMC they are still way behind in process engineering. i.e. how to actually use the tools to produce good performance chips.

Process might not matter as much in some parts of the military segment, like most weapons systems, but it does matter in the consumer sector. It means the chips will either use more power or will have less performance. As for "Moore's Law being dead" people have been claiming that since the 1970s. It slowed down in the past decade but it has not stopped yet. There is a roadmap to continue the process improvements for at least another decade.

Back when the F-22 came out, it used leading edge processes in the processors it came with, the radar also required a leading edge process. Now, that over a decade has passed, those processes are old hat. At the time those processors were required to do signal processing for the AESA radar. However the thing with radar algorithms is that the more computing power you can dedicate to them the more accurate the results you will get. China will always be two process generations behind due to current trade laws. This can as little as 4 or as many as 6 years behind the leading edge. Now that people are focused on AI even the current processes are not dense enough for the required applications. e.g. autonomous driving. these technologies rather obviously also have military applications. DARPA originally sponsored autonomous driving technology in the USA for example. This was intended to be used in logistics trucks and the like, but could be used in other applications as well.

Being two processes behind means that while, for example, you can put a 32GB NAND Flash chip on a smartphone, the other competitor, with a leading edge process, can put a 128GB NAND Flash chip which takes the same volume inside the smartphone. You have a dual-core chip, they have an eight-core chip. i.e. it's the difference between competing at the top end of the market, where most of the profit is, and being at the bottom end of the market, with razor-thin margins.

You claim at one point it will cease to matter. But the thing is, new applications always come up, once it was 3D graphics, then higher screen resolutions, right now, it is AI applications.

China has had some successes in the machine tool industry. Like for example when they bought KUKA in Germany (a deal which I'm still unsure how the Germans even allowed to pass). Can you even remember the name of a single heavy construction machine vendor from China? Because I sure can't. Let alone precision machine tools.

China has had successes in the solar cell and battery cell markets but the semiconductor market will be a lot tougher to crack.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top