Trade War with China

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
That's why the US and EU are deathly afraid of China 2025 agenda.

the only people concerned in any way with the trade war are farmer's, and manufacturers who have taken advantage of China's "cheap labor",, those manufacturers will have to "pony up", and pay someone else more, as for the farmer's, once China starts to seriously import those smaller, less productive soybeans??,, well, lets just say China is going to missing a cleaner larger soybean, as much as farmer's are going to missing the Chinese market...

to say anyone in the US is "deathly afraid" is nonsense, and YES, I do own a family farm and yes, this will affect my bottom line.! I don't know Jura, is everyone in the EU "deathly afraid"?

there are a few people who are concerned? but the President does have an "end game", so lets see how things are going? at the end of the 4th quarter??

I will say this, I'm NOT in favor of high taxes or higher tariffs, but I am in favor of more equitable trade practices,, and the President is right, we do get "jacked around" way to much.......

but if you go out on the street in Houston and ask your neighbors about China 2025 agenda??? are you seriously going to tell me that anyone you talk to will have any other response than, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
@Anlsvrthng

There are now 6 books written by insiders detailing how Trump is treated as a child by his closest advisors.

Are you seriously trying to say that Trump makes coherent plans?

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It is not coherent plan, rather than a set of targets / priorities.

Trial and error, and considering the complicated nature of the word it is as efficient as any sophisticated plan.

Considering that the best economists can not deliver a plan or even a reason why example the EU can not function, or what was the reason of the 08 crisis , or how China can avoid the Minsky moment.

So, Trump strategy at least using the good old trial and error method with persistence , and that is way better than anything.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
No, that is simply not true.

Trump is placing tariffs solely on Chinese imports. But these tariffs won't mean factories or jobs going to the USA. They will go to places like Vietnam, India and Mexico, which have lower labour costs than China.

So, neither Vietnam, India or Mexico managing the exchange rate , or buying in mass US treasuries / using subsidies and repressive monetary policy to push up the saving rate and run a trade surplus.

And generally the economy doesn't work like a machine, or a rigid process. That is an engineering view of world, and it can work only with a simple machine, not with complex processes / humans.

The tariffs will shape the trade flow between all countries, will adjust the consumption mix and customer preference.

Example if the Chinese inflatable bouncy castle will be too expensive then the replacement not necessarily an USA made bouncy castle, but it can be say a weekly swimming lesson, or garden slide or whatever.

If a new iphone will be too expensive then the replacement not necessarily an USA made iphone, but instead the customer can hang on the old phone for a longer time, and use up the money for same eating out, or for a new nail art, or whatever that is preferred by her. It doesn't need to the strategy of everyone, it can be a few percentage point increase in the average lifetime of phones with first owners across the whole user population.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
If China can become a Semiconductor power house, with 80% self sufficiency then hollowing out of its industry by US will not matter. But if China does not so that , then, ouch, it would become painful. US knows low end jobs will not come to US, rather they would go to South East Asia, India, and hollowing out industries in China is one of their sinister agenda.

I think China will join the semiconductor party at the very end of it.

My PC has ten years old cpu, made on 45 nm, and the new 10nm parts are two times faster than my old clunker.

So, the limits of basic physic kicked in thirteen years ago, and not there is no real advancements any more in the basic semi manufacturing processes.
The new dell top end laptop slower than the previous generation in the same range. It is smaller, lasting longer, and slower : /
The speed increase happens now with a snails speed.

The new semi industry will only increase the trade surplus, and suppress the Chinese personal consumption further.
So, it will go to the opposite direction than the official direction.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
the only people concerned in any way with the trade war are farmer's, and manufacturers who have taken advantage of China's "cheap labor",, those manufacturers will have to "pony up", and pay someone else more, as for the farmer's, once China starts to seriously import those smaller, less productive soybeans??,, well, lets just say China is going to missing a cleaner larger soybean, as much as farmer's are going to missing the Chinese market...

to say anyone in the US is "deathly afraid" is nonsense, and YES, I do own a family farm and yes, this will affect my bottom line.! I don't know Jura, is everyone in the EU "deathly afraid"?

there are a few people who are concerned? but the President does have an "end game", so lets see how things are going? at the end of the 4th quarter??

I will say this, I'm NOT in favor of high taxes or higher tariffs, but I am in favor of more equitable trade practices,, and the President is right, we do get "jacked around" way to much.......

but if you go out on the street in Houston and ask your neighbors about China 2025 agenda??? are you seriously going to tell me that anyone you talk to will have any other response than, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????

While it is true that China imports much less from the USA than they export (measured in USD), it may make some people think the USA is getting the short end of the stick here, but a lot of what the USA exports is services. Also when you consider, like, the price of an iPhone and the supplier chain, it may seem like China is retaining a lot of money from that deal when in fact they are not and only get to keep like 5-10% tops. Most of the cost is in licenses and chips manufactured and/or designed outside of China. Also, since the USA imports a lot more than they export overall, it means that those Chinese sanctions seem smaller in terms of USD, but in terms of total USA exports (%), they WILL hurt the USA a lot.

China has not even hit Washington with its largest sanctions stick yet. The major imports that China gets from the USA are agricultural products (i.e. food) and aerospace products (i.e. airplanes). So far they have done like Russia and only hit them with food sanctions. If you think Brazil and Argentina cannot provide them with a better deal on soybeans, you are sorely mistaken. As for airplanes, much like Russia, China is aiming for manufacturing airplanes inside China proper. If they wanted to, they also simply make Chinese carriers prefer to buy from Airbus rather than Boeing, always with Rolls & Royce engines, which would hit the USA industry quite a lot as well.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
the only people concerned in any way with the trade war are farmer's, and manufacturers who have taken advantage of China's "cheap labor",, those manufacturers will have to "pony up", and pay someone else more, as for the farmer's, once China starts to seriously import those smaller, less productive soybeans??,, well, lets just say China is going to missing a cleaner larger soybean, as much as farmer's are going to missing the Chinese market...
The idea that China is dependent on US for soybean is bravado. There is many ways to circumspect the need for US soy Here is one of them And once those market are gone it is not easy to reenter it
Taken advantage ? How Most American company form join venture in China on their free will. Nobody force them at gun point Like any transaction if you don't like the term walk away. If the Chinese partner steal your IP documented it and complain to WTO. I have yet to see documented proof of stealing all of them are innuendo and rumor or worst prejudice
Inside China's strategy in the soybean trade war

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BEIJING/CHICAGO (Reuters) - The executive from one of China’s biggest soybean crushers sat on a panel at a Kansas City agricultural exports conference, listening to an expert beside him explain why China would remain dependent on U.S. soybeans to feed its massive hog herds.

FILE PHOTO: Meagan Kaiser pulled up a soybean plant to show to a Chinese trade delegation during a tour of the Kaiser farm near Norborne, Missouri, U.S., August 28, 2018. REUTERS/Dave Kaup/File Photo
When his turn to speak came, Mu Yan Kui told the international audience of soy traders that everything they just heard was wrong. Then Mu ticked off a six-part strategy to slash Chinese consumption and tap alternate supplies with little financial pain.

“Many foreign business people and politicians have underestimated the determination of Chinese people to support the government in a trade war,” said Mu, vice chairman of Yihai Kerry, owned by Singapore-based Wilmar International (
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).

The comments echo a growing confidence within China’s soybean industry and government that the world’s largest pork-producing nation can wean itself off U.S. soy exports – a prospect that would decimate U.S. farmers, upend a 36-year-old trading relationship worth $12.7 billion last year, and radically remap global trade flows.
Just one prong of the strategy Mu detailed - to slash soymeal content in pig feed - could obliterate Chinese demand for U.S. soybeans if broadly adopted, according to Reuters calculations.

Cutting the soy ration for hogs from the typical 20 percent to 12 percent would equate to a demand reduction of up to 27 million tonnes of soybeans per year – an amount equal to 82 percent of Chinese soy imports from the United States last year. Chinese farmers could cut soymeal rations by nearly half without harming hogs’ growth, experts and academics said. FACTBOX:

Soy meal provides the protein and amino acids that pigs need to thrive, but reducing their use will be easier in China than elsewhere because farmers here have long included more soy than needed to keep their hogs healthy, according to industry experts in China and the United States.

The standard 20 percent ration dates to a recipe promoted by U.S. soybean industry advocates in the 1980s as they entered what was then a newly opened market for foreign investment.

Most Chinese pig farmers have continued to use high levels of soymeal even as their U.S. counterparts reduced soy content after advancing the science of optimizing feed ingredients to provide the best nutrition at the lowest cost.


Major Chinese agriculture firms have recently started adopting the same tactics, but the nation’s pork sector remains dominated by smaller operations that - until now - didn’t have a strong financial incentive to justify the time and expense required to overhaul feeding systems and formulas, industry experts said.

Now, China’s 25-percent tariff on U.S. soybeans - a retaliation against levies by U.S. President Donald Trump on a wide range of Chinese imports - is accelerating the push to slash soymeal rations.

“The Sino-U.S. trade tensions will inevitably promote the wider application of this know-how,” said Yin Jingdong, professor in animal nutrition at China Agricultural University.

A feed mill owned by Beijing Dabeinong Technology Group Co (
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), for instance, plans to eliminate imported U.S. soybeans from its feed mix by October, said Zhang Wei, a manager at the mill, one of China’s top farmers and feed makers. The firm will replace soy imports with more cornmeal and alternative protein sources, including domestically produced soymeal, which has typically been grown for human consumption.

At the Kansas City conference, held by the U.S. Soybean Export Council, Mu highlighted reduced soymeal rations as part of a broader strategy, including seeking alternative protein sources such as rapeseed or cotton seed; tapping surplus soybean stocks, including a government reserve, and domestically grown soybeans; and continuing to boost soybean imports from Brazil and Argentina.

Slideshow (8 Images)
Mu’s presentation reflects the line of thinking now broadly accepted by China’s government and its state-run agriculture firms - and marks a shift since the onset of the trade war. When Beijing threatened soybean tariffs in April, Chinese feedmakers and agriculture experts worried the move would inflict more pain on the domestic industry than its top trading partner because China would struggle to replace U.S. supplies.

Seated to Mu’s right at the panel table was Wallace Tyner, a Purdue University economist who had moments earlier argued that the United States and China would suffer about equal financial damage from the soybean trade war.

He called Mu’s remarks a “political speech.” The tenants of the China strategy Mu outlined were achievable, Tyner said in a later interview, “but each one of them cost money.”

USDA spokesman Tim Murtaugh downplayed the threat of China displacing U.S. soybean supplies. The Trump administration, he said, is analyzing import demand and ultimately aims to win back access to the China market under better terms.

“It’s not surprising that China would float this idea, given the trade dispute,” he said.


A REVOLUTION IN TRADE
In the early 1980s, the U.S. farm lobby sold Chinese farmers on the promise that they could use imported soybeans to slash the amount of time needed to their fatten pigs, said Dabeinong’s Zhang and Feng Yonghui, chief analyst and market veteran with Soozhu.com, a Chinese hog consultancy.

The U.S. industry wanted access to a market with more than a billion people and rising per capita income, and the American Soybean Association opened an office in Beijing four years into China’s landmark economic reforms.

“They knew someday that China would need to import,” said John Baize, president of John C. Baize & Associates and a consultant for the U.S. Soybean Export Council.

China’s communist government saw another opportunity in the arrival of U.S. soy - for profits and jobs from the massive soy-crushing industry it would build to process imported beans into meal and oil, with plants strategically located near seaports. Beijing fostered the industry with a tax system that encouraged soybean imports but punished those of finished soy products.


In 1982, China imported 30,000 tonnes of soybeans. Last year, it imported 95.5 million tonnes, including 32.9 million from the United States, according to Chinese customs data. U.S. soybean plantings shot up from nearly 71 million acres in 1982 to nearly 90 million this year, worth a total of $41 billion.

FRAYED NERVES
Now, China is urgently looking elsewhere for imports. Chinese crushers bought all the South American beans they could over the past few months, building record stocks of beans and meal.

In July, the National Development & Reform Commission (NDRC) - the state economic planner - discussed ways to switch up pigs’ diets with major feedmakers and pig farmers, New Hope Group [NWHOP.UL], Dabeinong, CP Group and Hefeng Group.

On September 4, an executive of top bean processor Jiusan predicted that China will only need to buy 700,000 tonnes of soybeans from the United States in the marketing season that starts this month, a tiny fraction of what it bought last year.


With no sign of a resolution to the trade war, Bob Metz, a South Dakota corn and soybean farmer, is making plans to reduce the number of acres he devotes to soybeans next spring. He’s alerted his seed dealer that he may need more corn seed and less soy.

“It makes me very nervous,” he said, because China has been such a dominant buyer of U.S. beans.

James Lee Adams - a retired farmer from Camilla, Georgia, and past president of the American Soybean Association - was among those who worked in the 1980s to open the Chinese market to U.S. soybeans.

Now, he worries the profitable relationship could collapse.

“You develop trade partners over a long period, but you can lose them overnight,” he said. “When you start becoming an unreliable supplier, people are going to start looking elsewhere.”
 
... I don't know Jura, is everyone in the EU "deathly afraid"?

...
LOL! yesterday in a bar we talked about China and the message would be it's too late to be afraid, LOL will give you just one example:

the last sentence in
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"In September 2015,
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bought the team."

it's like as if the Chinese owned
MLB-New-York-Yankees-Logo-Stencil-thumb.jpg
if you know what I mean


what matters is their investments, exports etc. will only get higher

one more example: a guy who was in that bar had recently ordered from China a bicycle bell for less than one US$, everything ('shipping and handling') included, the bell's OK, delivered after a week or so ... here the price of a similar bell would like five (?) dollars ... so yeah, it is scary

plus check what I'll post right below:
 
noticed
Walmart is where the trade war comes home
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Two weeks ago, Walmart asked the Trump administration to walk back its plan to put tariffs on Christmas lights, shampoo, dog food, luggage, mattresses, handbags, backpacks, vacuum cleaners, bicycles, cooking grills, cable cords and air conditioners.
In a letter to US Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer, the company said expanded tariffs on Chinese imports would hurt its customers, its suppliers and the US economy.

"The immediate impact will be to raise prices on consumers and tax American business and manufacturers," Walmart said.

The administration was unmoved. On Monday, it pressed forward with 10% tariffs on those products and
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. The tariffs, which take effect next week, will jump to 25% at the end of the year.

The latest round of tariffs brings the US trade war with China directly to Walmart (
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), the country's largest retailer, and hits the everyday products it sells.

Raise prices or take the hit
Other retailers and consumer goods companies, including Ace Hardware and Joann fabric and craft stores, also lobbied the administration.

Target (
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) said the tariffs will "hurt American consumers," and said working families will pay more for school and college essentials like notebooks, calculators, binders and desks.

The administration did not bend to the company's plea. It imposed tariffs on those goods — although it did spare bicycle helmets, high chairs, car seats and playpens from the final list. It also left off Apple Watches and Air Pods, a
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Target and Walmart will now face a tough choice: They can absorb the higher costs from tariffs by taking a hit to their profit margins, or they can pass some of the price increases on to their customers.

"Either consumers will pay more, suppliers will receive less, retail margins will be lower, or consumers will buy fewer products or forego purchases altogether," Walmart warned in its letter.

The National Retail Federation, a trade group, estimated that a 25% tariff on furniture would cost Americans $4.5 billion more per year, while a 25% levy on travel items like luggage and handbags would cost an additional $1.2 billion.

Washing machines were an early example of how tariffs filter down to shoppers. The Trump administration imposed a 20% trade penalty on washers earlier this year, and laundry equipment prices spiked close to 20% in recent months, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Walmart will have to wrestle with the price question in a big way. Of the company's $500 billion in sales last year, about $50 billion was linked to Chinese imports or investments in Chinese businesses, estimated Greg Melich, a retail analyst at MoffettNathanson.

And raising prices is anathema to Walmart, a company that controls 10% of the US retail market and has a customer base of low- and middle-income Americans.

"Given that Walmart was such a huge source of cheap products for low income customers over the years, this really hurts the very people that Trump professes to help," said Sucharita Kodali, a retail analyst for research firm Forrester.

The White House did not respond to a request for comment.

Kodali predicted that prices will rise in categories where products have become less expensive in recent years, such as hockey gear. Ice hockey gloves made the administration's final list. So did baseball gloves.

Supply chain havoc
Walmart's American suppliers rely on parts from China to assemble and finish production in the United States. For example, Lasko fans, which are assembed in the United States and sold at stores, rely on motors from China.

The same with bikes: Each mass market bicycle requires 40 individual parts to make, all of which are imported. "Tariffs on these parts would make U.S. manufacturing uncompetitive and drive up the price of bicycles for children and families," Walmart told Lighthizer.

Although the company has been working to buy more bikes from American manufacturers, not enough are made in the United States to meet demand. Even with 25% tariffs, buying bikes with Chinese parts will still be cheaper than suppliers shifting production entirely, Walmart said.

The Trump administration is using tariffs to push companies to manufacture more goods in the United States. But the National Retail Federation says the administration's thinking is flawed and carefully planned supply chain plans can't be redrawn overnight.

Retailers order their products six months to a year in advance, and they are left scrambling to find new options for 2019.

"The [administration] continues to overestimate the ability of US companies to shift supply chains out of China," the trade group said in its own
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to Lighthizer. "Global supply chains are extremely complex. It can take years to find the right partners who can meet the proper criteria and produce products at the scale and cost that is needed."

For example, the United States imported close to $220 million worth of dog leashes last year, and more than 80% came from China. And $474 million worth of lights for Christmas trees were imported to the United States last year, 85% of which were from China.

So while Walmart is already locked in for the coming holiday season, Christmas lights will probably be more expensive next year.
 
Today at 9:46 AM
now I read
Premier Li Keqiang: China won't weaken the yuan to boost exports
2018-09-19 13:21 GMT+8
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related:
China says it will never use its currency as a weapon in the trade war
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The trade war between China and the United States is intensifying, but Beijing has just taken one potential weapon off the table.
Premier Li Keqiang told an audience of global executives and policymakers that China would not weaken the yuan to boost trade with the rest of the world.

"China will never go down the path of stimulating exports by devaluing its currency," Chinese Premier Li Keqiang said Wednesday.

His comments came a day after the United States and China announced that they would impose their biggest rounds of tariffs yet on each other's exports, starting next week.

That brings the value of goods hit by tariffs in the escalating conflict to more than $360 billion. President Donald Trump has threatened to hit another $267 billion of Chinese goods with tariffs.

China, which buys far less from the United States than the other way round, is starting to run low on American products to target, raising speculation about what other measures it could take to hit back.

Driving down the currency, which is also known as the renminbi, isn't one of them, according to Li.

"Persistent depreciation of the renminbi will only do more harm than good to our country," he said during a speech at a World Economic Forum event in the northern Chinese city of Tianjin.

The yuan has dropped sharply against the dollar as the trade fight has ramped up, losing about 9% of its value since April.

Accused of manipulation
The decline has drawn the attention of President Trump, who has often accused China of devaluing the yuan to boost its huge export industry. Trump
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in July that China was "manipulating" its currency lower.

Li dismissed that idea on Wednesday.

"The recent fluctuations in the renminbi exchange rate have been seen by some as an intentional measure on the part of China," he said. "This is simply not true."

The Chinese government plays a significant role in setting the value of the yuan and how it trades. Economists generally agree Beijing kept the currency artificially low in the past, but they are skeptical that government intervention has driven it down against the dollar and other major currencies this year.

They say the escalating trade war with the United States and concerns over a slowdown in the Chinese economy have helped push the yuan lower at a time when the US Federal Reserve is steadily raising interest rates. That policy makes it more attractive for investors to hold assets in US dollars, prompting them to sell other currencies.

Sudden drops in the yuan in 2015 and early 2016 set off turmoil in global markets as money poured out of China's economy. Beijing
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propping it up.

China will "work to create conditions for keeping the value of the yuan stable," Li said Wednesday.

His words weren't enough to convince everyone, though.

"Manipulation has occurred and is occurring, and I hope that action is taken," Todd Rokita, a Trump-supporting congressman from Indiana, told CNN at the Tianjin conference just minutes after Li's speech.
 
now
Commentary: White House ramping up tariffs won't solve China-U.S. trade dispute
Xinhua| 2018-09-19 23:14:27
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Despite global outcries, Washington has just amped up its rhetoric and ramped up its tariffs against China yet again.

In a statement issued Monday, U.S. President Donald Trump announced that his government would impose 10-percent tariffs on roughly 200 billion U.S. dollars' worth of imports from China starting on Sept. 24, and expand the levy to 25 percent beginning Jan. 1.

Part of Washington's rationale for this is the belief that its tariff tactics will have grueling consequences for the Chinese economy; as such, China would agree to make more concessions -- only to play into Washington's hands.

However, this U.S. assumption is based on a lack of understanding of China's economy and policies.

With an annual decline in the share of foreign trade in the whole Chinese economy, China is consolidating the fundamental role that domestic consumption plays in its growth. In the first half of 2018, China's gross domestic product increased by 6.8 percent, overshadowing that of most major economies in the world. Domestic consumption contributed 78.5 percent to the growth rate.

Meanwhile, Beijing is continuing to steadily promote a reform and opening-up and adopting measures to stabilize the market.

China's stable environment for foreign investment, measures to facilitate business, transparent policies along with a vast consumer market continue to make it a coveted target for global businesses, all adding up to its confidence in confronting Washington's unilateral and protectionist moves.

China's policies on trade facilitation and investment liberalization, in sharp contrast to the U.S. strategy, have been well received around the globe.

U.S. multinationals such as Tesla and ExxonMobil have announced huge investment programs in China recently, casting ballots of confidence in favor of Beijing.

In fact, Washington's approach of imposing tariffs will not solve the China-U.S. trade disputes, but harm the interests of U.S. businesses and consumers instead and add downside risks to the global economy.

The latest report by the American Action Forum, a Washington-based nonprofit issue advocacy organization, showed that the upcoming tariffs could raise overall costs for both U.S. consumers and businesses by roughly 19.7 billion dollars per year.

In a letter to the U.S. Trade Representative by 150 industrial associations earlier this month, the organizations representing agriculture, retailers, manufacturers, technology and other industries say that "continuing the tit-for-tat tariff escalation with China only serves to expand the harm to more U.S. economic interests, including farmers, families, businesses and workers."

On the ground, unilateral tariff onslaughts have never prevailed in U.S. history. It is time for the Trump administration to take a rational approach to China-U.S. trade relations and frictions and engage with China as an equal partner to solve trade-related issues.
 
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