AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World

Tam

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They are not Aegis-type because they have to physically turn. Type 346 is Aegis-type because it can do it near instantaneously because there are four arrays providing constant all-aspect tracking. It's that simple.

So you mean Aegis type is defined by having fixed antennas? Some of these European radars, for example, TRS-4D, has a rotating version, which is contracted for the LCS, and a fixed four faced version, like contracted for German frigates. But its the same radar. Just different antenna format.


You fire 3 missiles at a Type 051C simultaneously with 120 degrees azimuth between them and you got a sunk 051C. You do that to a 052D/Daring/Aegis/Aegis-like and you got three successful interceptions.

Not necessarily. The pedestal can turn, so it hits one missile, turns to another and hits it, turns to the last and hits it. It does not need to take them out simultaneously. In addition compared to a parabolic antenna which has a more narrow focus and needs to be mechanically slewed around, the flat array has a much broader coverage, so from a fixed position it already covers a wide area, then turn it around for even more. In this case, the tracking radar and the target illuminators are built into the same face.

052D vs. Daring vs. Arleigh Burke all three have very very different fire control systems. The 052D's fire control system is much closer to the 051D, is that its illluminators are built into main phase array radar face, which is similar to the Patriot's MPQ-53 and the S-300 engagement radars like Tombstone and Flaplid. The Daring relies on active homing missiles, and the Burke relies on mechanical slewing parabolic antennas for target illumination. The SPY-1 radar faces are for search and track only, not target illiumination. Daring does not have target illumination --- ARH type missiles totally bypass the need for it. SAMPSON is search and track only.
 

Blitzo

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Slow rotating radars are meant for range and volume search. The slower the radar turns, the longer the scanning rate, the longer the range, the longer the time the radar dwells on the target, which increases the signal strength of the echo, which makes for a better return over longer distances. This is also accompanied by longer wave bands and longer pulse repetition frequency. This is not being outdated, the slow rate has a purpose. These radars cue other faster scanning and higher frequency radars to track the target for engagement. Radars generally look for a sweet spot between range and tracking rates; range is not the be all, and all for radar performance.

Some radars orient more for range, others for tracking performance and ships tend to carry both to get the best of both worlds. APAR+SMART L is a good example of this combination. On certain Russian ships, and with the Type 051C, you see this with the FREGAT, along with the RIF-M. FREGAT searches long range rotating a full 360 degrees, detects, then tracks the targets, cues the RIF radar, which is a Tombstone or Flap Lid type phase array, that tracks targets even further with a higher tracking rate, then engages them by lighting them up to guide SARH or TVM missiles to it.


In cases like the 054A, or Russian ships with FREGAT and Shtil missile systems, its likely the Orekh or Front Domes also act as tracking radars then switch to a single target track illumination mode, similar to a fighter jet radar, for missile guidance. My understanding is that Type 382 rotates more than twice as fast as FREGAT, with up to 30 RPM. With dual face, that means 60 scans per minute, and it also has a C-band mode for more accurate tracking. Radars like the Type 364 on the aft funnel and the Type 366 on top of the bridge also joins in with the search and tracking, which is also what they do on the 051C, 052C/D, all giving you simultaneous, redundant, full 360 coverage.

I understand the difference in rotation rate between volume search radars and more multifunction radars.

That is why I compared Sea Eagle with SAMPSON and not Sea Eagle with SMART L, because on the 054A at any rate the Sea Eagle operates as the primary MFR while the SAMPSON on Type 45 operates as the primary MFR.

In the case of many PLAN ships, including 054A and 052C/D etc, they have an additional fast rotating Type 364 (I believe it is called) radar for shorter range low altitude/horizon search.


Air defense ships had actually existed before AEGIS. If the Patriot system was navalized, would you call it an AEGIS like system?

If the Patriot system was navalized -- i.e.: had 3 or 4 fixed faces, and if it had the ability to fire its missiles at a fast rate (whether by VLS or by a sufficient number of arm launchers), all modified to work on a practical, naval ship, then yes I absolutely would call the ship that hosts such a system an Aegis type ship.



In other words, its just branding. You associate a brand to a certain quality, like Xerox is to copiers. or why "PC" which is an IBM copyrighted trademark, becomes associated to a whole genre of computers.

I like to be more specific, especially when the branding is associated with a copyright.

The difference is that the "quality" of the brand in this case can actually be quantified and defined as well.

I'm deliberately choosing to not be as specific as having to include SPY-1 and Mk-99 in my definition of "Aegis type" because I think it makes it much more easier for most people to understand.

The fact of the matter is that the initial Aegis (TM) ships of the world (Tico, Burke etc) have established a benchmark for what people associate with the term "Aegis ship". For the purposes of discussion and description, I believe it strikes a good balance between specificity and understanding for "Aegis type" ship to be used to categorize ships of those characteristics but which may not necessarily be using SPY-1, Mk-99 or the Aegis CMS.



Regardless where the Tombstone phase array faces --- its not fully rotating, it turns and faces the targets --- this ship has full 360 coverage thanks to all the other radars you see up high. They cue the phase array towards the target or targets for engagement, where the array can concurrently engage up to six targets or even up to 12. Does this qualify as Aegis like?


View attachment 46391

If 051C had two sets of Tombstone arrays, and if 051C's Fregat radar had a faster refresh rate then I think there would be no reason to not consider it.
 

Blitzo

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They are not Aegis-type because they have to physically turn. Type 346 is Aegis-type because it can do it near instantaneously because there are four arrays providing constant all-aspect tracking. It's that simple.

You fire 3 missiles at a Type 051C simultaneously with 120 degrees azimuth between them and you got a sunk 051C. You do that to a 052D/Daring/Aegis/Aegis-like and you got three successful interceptions.

Bingo.

So you mean Aegis type is defined by having fixed antennas? Some of these European radars, for example, TRS-4D, has a rotating version, which is contracted for the LCS, and a fixed four faced version, like contracted for German frigates. But its the same radar. Just different antenna format.

In that case, if the rotating version is able to spin at 60rpm then we can consider it to be Aegis type, but if it's meaningfully below that then probably not.




Not necessarily. The pedestal can turn, so it hits one missile, turns to another and hits it, turns to the last and hits it. It does not need to take them out simultaneously. In addition compared to a parabolic antenna which has a more narrow focus and needs to be mechanically slewed around, the flat array has a much broader coverage, so from a fixed position it already covers a wide area, then turn it around for even more. In this case, the tracking radar and the target illuminators are built into the same face.

I mean, I haven't explicitly described it as a requirement in my definition of "Aegis type," but based on the characteristics I've laid out, one of the capabilities those characteristics will enable is being able to take out multiple targets simultaneously or near simultaneously from multiple directions.



052D vs. Daring vs. Arleigh Burke all three have very very different fire control systems. The 052D's fire control system is much closer to the 051D, is that its illluminators are built into main phase array radar face, which is similar to the Patriot's MPQ-53 and the S-300 engagement radars like Tombstone and Flaplid. The Daring relies on active homing missiles, and the Burke relies on mechanical slewing parabolic antennas for target illumination. The SPY-1 radar faces are for search and track only, not target illiumination. Daring does not have target illumination --- ARH type missiles totally bypass the need for it. SAMPSON is search and track only.

I think we're aware of the difference in methods in which those different ships engage targets. That doesn't change the fact that those three ships are able to do what jobjed described and 051C cannot.


Btw, as far as 052D using SARH HHQ-9 go, I would be surprised if current variant HHQ-9s are still SARH. We know that Type 346/A is a dual band S/C AESA, where the C band does the illumination for HHQ-9, but considering the land based export HQ-9 (aka FD-2000) is listed as being active radar guided I would be surprised if recent variants of HHQ-9 (and indeed the land based HQ-9 as well) still uses SARH and has not adopted ARH.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member

FREGAT and Type 382 are capable of 360 coverage, and tracking. The Type 051C is capable of tracking all three missiles at different directions, and can engage any of the two that are within the engagement radar's hemisphere.


In that case, if the rotating version is able to spin at 60rpm then we can consider it to be Aegis type, but if it's meaningfully below that then probably not.

Rate of spin should not be a necessary quantifiable to being an Aegis like. As I said before, the rate of spin is also a function to the range of the targets being tracked. A longer ranged target requires that the radar stays longer on it for a longer dwell time and should not spin away. Another thing is that you are only considering one axis in the scan, which is the horizontal. On the vertical, used for 3D, even a FRESCAN can do as many times as it needs.


I mean, I haven't explicitly described it as a requirement in my definition of "Aegis type," but based on the characteristics I've laid out, one of the capabilities those characteristics will enable is being able to take out multiple targets simultaneously or near simultaneously from multiple directions.

Except that is way too broad.

I think we're aware of the difference in methods in which those different ships engage targets. That doesn't change the fact that those three ships are able to do what jobjed described and 051C cannot.

No. The 051C can simultaneously take out multiple targets --- 6 engaged, and 12 missiles sent at them --- within the hemisphere of the engagement radar, which can also quickly turn to a new hemisphere to take out the rest in a jiffy. It does not need to be pointed directly, only that the face needs to be in the general direction of the attack, while multiple beams can be steered electronically towards the targets. At no time the ship will ever be blind, given the three radars (Fregat, Type 364 and 366) scanning in all hemispheres.


051c-radar.jpg

Its the Burke that has the most doubt when you are facing a saturation attack. One thing to realize that these parabolic antennas would need to follow a widely maneuvering target, keep the dish directly pointed at the target, and keep those targets within its beam. Which is a lot easier to do if you are using electronic scanning for target illumination, and totally moot with an active guided missile.


The Burke has three of these, two over the aft hanger and one over the bridge.

spg62.jpg

SPG-62.jpg


Of late, the Burkes now have active homing missiles through the SM-6. But with these missiles costing 4 to 6 million a piece, which is a heck of a lot more than the antiship missiles they are supposed to be shooting down, you don't expect a lot of these missiles to be bought.

In paper, if you want to go with theory, if you match Asters with their active homing, with SPY-1 radar, you won't need illuminators at all, and just fire as many missiles at will as many targets the radar can track most accurately.


Btw, as far as 052D using SARH HHQ-9 go, I would be surprised if current variant HHQ-9s are still SARH. We know that Type 346/A is a dual band S/C AESA, where the C band does the illumination for HHQ-9, but considering the land based export HQ-9 (aka FD-2000) is listed as being active radar guided I would be surprised if recent variants of HHQ-9 (and indeed the land based HQ-9 as well) still uses SARH and has not adopted ARH.

With the 052D, with the absence of any physical illuminators, you only have two options. Either the illuminators are in the main panel faces, sort of like the Patriot's MPQ-53 unit, or there is no need for illuminators at all, and that the missiles are active homing. If HHQ-9 is active homing, there are two options on the main radar faces. Type 364A/B can still be dual band S/C, with the S band used for search and the C-band for fast and more precise tracking of targets, minus target illumination. Or the C-band array completely eliminated, you increase the surface area and number of elements of the S-band array to cover the eliminated array, increasing the range and power of the S-band array.
 

Blitzo

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FREGAT and Type 382 are capable of 360 coverage, and tracking.

Rotation rate.


The Type 051C is capable of tracking all three missiles at different directions, and can engage any of the two that are within the engagement radar's hemisphere.

Inability to engage targets at 360 degrees.


Rate of spin should not be a necessary quantifiable to being an Aegis like. As I said before, the rate of spin is also a function to the range of the targets being tracked. A longer ranged target requires that the radar stays longer on it for a longer dwell time and should not spin away. Another thing is that you are only considering one axis in the scan, which is the horizontal. On the vertical, used for 3D, even a FRESCAN can do as many times as it needs.

If the primary multi function PAR on a ship has an insufficient rpm then I consider that to be a problem because it means a reduced refresh rate.

If Sea Eagle or Fregat or whatever was being used as a volume search radar and it had a different radar with a fast refresh rate or fixed PAR as the primary MFR then that would be a different matter.

But in the case of 054A and 051C the Sea Eagle/Fregat unfortunately is the primary MFR.



Except that is way too broad.

Unless you want me to give something like "no. of targets at each given direction engaged within a given timespan" I think that description is pretty specific.

At any rate it is able to differentiate ships like 051C, 054A, Kidd class, etc from Burkes, 052C/D etc.



No. The 051C can simultaneously take out multiple targets --- 6 engaged, and 12 missiles sent at them --- within the hemisphere of the engagement radar, which can also quickly turn to a new hemisphere to take out the rest in a jiffy. It does not need to be pointed directly, only that the face needs to be in the general direction of the attack, while multiple beams can be steered electronically towards the targets. At no time the ship will ever be blind, given the three radars (Fregat, Type 364 and 366) scanning in all hemispheres.

"In a jiffy" isn't quite the same as "at the same time".

Indeed, the 051C will never be blind, but it won't be able to engage targets in opposite hemispheres at the same time.
If 051C had two Tombstones I think it would be fair to call it an Aegis type ship.


View attachment 46399

Its the Burke that has the most doubt when you are facing a saturation attack. One thing to realize that these parabolic antennas would need to follow a widely maneuvering target, keep the dish directly pointed at the target, and keep those targets within its beam. Which is a lot easier to do if you are using electronic scanning for target illumination, and totally moot with an active guided missile.


The Burke has three of these, two over the aft hanger and one over the bridge.

View attachment 46398

View attachment 46396


Of late, the Burkes now have active homing missiles through the SM-6. But with these missiles costing 4 to 6 million a piece, which is a heck of a lot more than the antiship missiles they are supposed to be shooting down, you don't expect a lot of these missiles to be bought.

In paper, if you want to go with theory, if you match Asters with their active homing, with SPY-1 radar, you won't need illuminators at all, and just fire as many missiles at will as many targets the radar can track most accurately.

I'm aware of the limitations of the Burke's deficiencies compared to ships that either have AESA MFRs or ARH SAMs or both.

But I don't think that detracts from my definition of what an "Aegis type" ship is. You could say that Burkes (or at least pre Flight III Burkes not equipped with SM-6s) fall on the less capable spectrum of what an "Aegis type" ship can do in terms of engaging with multi axis saturation attacks, which I won't disagree with.



With the 052D, with the absence of any physical illuminators, you only have two options. Either the illuminators are in the main panel faces, sort of like the Patriot's MPQ-53 unit, or there is no need for illuminators at all, and that the missiles are active homing. If HHQ-9 is active homing, there are two options on the main radar faces. Type 364A/B can still be dual band S/C, with the S band used for search and the C-band for fast and more precise tracking of targets, minus target illumination. Or the C-band array completely eliminated, you increase the surface area and number of elements of the S-band array to cover the eliminated array, increasing the range and power of the S-band array.

No disagreement there.

The leaks about the development of Type 346's development does basically confirm that the initial Type 346 (note, 346 not 364) was designed for HHQ-9 via SARH guidance with the C band component doing terminal illumination.



Guys ... can we stay on topic PLEASE !!!!

Do you mind putting the previous replies into this thread so we can continue it?

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aegis-and-aegis-like-escort-combatants-of-the-world.t6143/
 
LOL

#2242 Bltizo, 3 minutes ago
...





Do you mind putting the previous replies into this thread so we can continue it?

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aegis-and-aegis-like-escort-combatants-of-the-world.t6143/
after
Sunday at 8:43 AM
there's a thread cleverly named
AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the World https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aegis-and-aegis-like-escort-combatants-of-the-world.t6143/
so that people don't need to care about this
... ....

but now a debate taking pages and tens of hours may start, have fun LOL!

I add I realized I'd seen discussions what is, or isn't, 'AEGIS Like' too LOL

and, ehm, #2226 Bltizo, Sunday at 10:22 PM
In the last few pages you've done more complaining about how they were off topic nearly as much as the rest of us have discussed the off topic subject.

At least my posts on the matter have been relatively constructive, if you're just going to make jokes or references about how a subject is OT across multiple posts, please consider otherwise.
 

Blitzo

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Yes, because here is what you wrote:

"there's a thread cleverly named
AEGIS and AEGIS Like escort combatants of the Worldhttps://www.sinodefenceforum.com/aegis-and-aegis-like-escort-combatants-of-the-world.t6143/
so that people don't need to care about this
... ....

but now a debate taking pages and tens of hours may start, have fun LOL!

I add I realized I'd seen discussions what is, or isn't, 'AEGIS Like' too LOL"


What you wrote was the equivalent of "lol you're having an off topic discussion, whatever haha, have fun".

It was not a request to move the off topic posts to a different thread, it was basically snide complaining, or at least that is how it would be interpreted.

Next time, feel free to write something like "I feel like the last few posts are off topic, can a moderator move them over to a different thread". Such a request would not be interpreted negatively by anyone.
 

Deino

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Ok guys ... after pages of back and forth please continue here and also please refrain from any personnel attacks as well as starting and ending each post with LOL :mad:

Deino
 
wondering what's the smallest (displacement-wise)
AEGIS Like escort combatant of the World
EDIT I mean currently in service, not 'marvels' like Oct 24, 2017
¿ Qué versión del proyecto 22160 adquieren los rusos ?
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LOL señor I was preparing a post on this, interesting links are:

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describes how the Russian Navy got partly involved in 'modularity' nonsense (USN LCS), so the actual armament is unclear at this point

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mildly chest-thumping

the smallest
AEGIS escort combatant of the World
is
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right?
 
Last edited:
wondering what's the smallest (displacement-wise)
AEGIS Like escort combatant of the World
EDIT I mean currently in service, not 'marvels' like Oct 24, 2017


...
... I guess
Gowind® 2500 Corvette
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(I know the range of MICA AAMs is small, but still in so called third world a Gowind,

with 16 missiles to shoot and
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and
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,

should be capable of local air-defense of convoys, landing vessels etc.)

no?
 
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