Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

[BLUEJACKET]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

You don't have to sink a carrier to put it out of commission. Look what happened to the USS Cole! That's a classic example of "assymetric responce".
If proffesional frogmen/commandos are emplyoed in place like Suez canal or Strait of Malacca (were all ships must slow down), and/or a medium/big ship is rammed against CV/CVN, you can forget about that carrier launching planes for a long time. I remember seeing many Asian cargo ships underway & at anchor off Singapore, particularly a N.Korean merchant ship at anchor with someone on the bridge looking at us heading to the Persian Gulf with binoculars. How long it would take for that guy to send a message out to their HQ or PLAN?
see my post here-
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=264&page=34

 

[IDonT]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

You don't have to sink a carrier to put it out of commission. Look what happened to the USS Cole! That's a classic example of "assymetric responce".
If proffesional frogmen/commandos are emplyoed in place like Suez canal or Strait of Malacca (were all ships must slow down), and/or a medium/big ship is rammed against CV/CVN, you can forget about that carrier launching planes for a long time. I remember seeing many Asian cargo ships underway & at anchor off Singapore, particularly a N.Korean merchant ship at anchor with someone on the bridge looking at us heading to the Persian Gulf with binoculars. How long it would take for that guy to send a message out to their HQ or PLAN?
see my post here-
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=264&page=34

That is assuming that:

1.) You are on a peacetime footing
2.) A carrier has to be on port near your base of operations (highly unlikely in war time)
3.) Such an attack, if proven that it was sanctioned by another country, will be considered an act of war.
4.) Such an attack, if carried in a port of a third country, is considered an act of war by that country. It is not very polite to fight a war on the soil of a third party. In all likelyhood, that nation will side with the US because that nation has took it upon itself to protect the US ship when it enters its borders.
5.) In times of war, each port is protected by teams of US coast guard and navy personnel. They have trained dolphins that specifically hunt frogsmen.
6.) You are grasping for straws here. Assymetric warfare can only do so much and each attack will only work once. A carrier can hit back many times.

 

[BLUEJACKET]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

That is assuming that:

1.) You are on a peacetime footing
2.) A carrier has to be on port near your base of operations (highly unlikely in war time)
3.) Such an attack, if proven that it was sanctioned by another country, will be considered an act of war.
4.) Such an attack, if carried in a port of a third country, is considered an act of war by that country. It is not very polite to fight a war on the soil of a third party. In all likelyhood, that nation will side with the US because that nation has took it upon itself to protect the US ship when it enters its borders.
5.) In times of war, each port is protected by teams of US coast guard and navy personnel. They have trained dolphins that specifically hunt frogsmen.
6.) You are grasping for straws here. Assymetric warfare can only do so much and each attack will only work once. A carrier can hit back many times.

It's all right using your level of analysis. But those assumptions may not be 100% correct. WWII was already at least 2 years old when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Even without attacking in someone else's territorial waters/ports, there are plenty of places in international straits for an ambush.

 

[IDonT]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

It's all right using your level of analysis. But those assumptions may not be 100% correct. WWII was already at least 2 years old when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Even without attacking in someone else's territorial waters/ports, there are plenty of places in international straits for an ambush.

It is practically impossible to ambush a US carrier strike group on a war footing. Why?

To ambush something means that you have to know where and when a carrier will be at a particular time so you can set up your ambush. That means you need to be able to track it and extrapolate its next move. If it is difficult to find a carrier in a non-ambush scenario, assuming parity of forces, imagine how difficult it would be to find a carrier in a ambush scenario. A carrier will never go on a confined body of water in wartime, unless such area has been effectively clear of enemy activity. USN Admirals do know how to do their jobs.

WWII started at Pearl Harbor for the US.

Again your grasping for straws here.

 

[Obi Wan Russell]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

WWII started at Pearl Harbor for the US

WWII started in 1937 when the Japanese invaded China. It was pushing five years old when the US finally joined the party. But the you were three years late for the First world war too...

 

[BLUEJACKET]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

It is practically impossible to ambush a US carrier strike group on a war footing. Why?

To ambush something means that you have to know where and when a carrier will be at a particular time so you can set up your ambush. That means you need to be able to track it and extrapolate its next move. If it is difficult to find a carrier in a non-ambush scenario, assuming parity of forces, imagine how difficult it would be to find a carrier in a ambush scenario. A carrier will never go on a confined body of water in wartime, unless such area has been effectively clear of enemy activity. USN Admirals do know how to do their jobs.

WWII started at Pearl Harbor for the US.

Again your grasping for straws here.

It's impossible to know for sure that there is no enemy activity in a given area. Noone is invincible. Carriers are predictable not only in narrow straits but also as they do circles during flight ops. The Titanic was unsinkable also, along with Lusitania. Who was grasping for straws then? Or when CV-64 lost 18 sailors fighting fire in the boiler machinery room, while all topside were at their "abandon ship" stations? Or during fire on USS Forrestall?

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The Titanic was unsinkable also, along with Lusitania. Who was grasping for straws then? Or when CV-64 lost 18 sailors fighting fire in the boiler machinery room, while all topside were at their "abandon ship" stations? Or during fire on USS Forrestall?

But we're not talking about civilian cruise liners, or accidents or operational mistakes by the carrier personnel themselves that cause damage or sinking. We are talking about an aggressor nation finding and then attacking and either mission killing or sinking a carrier at force of arms. That's an ENTIRELY different animal than the examples you just cited. Those examples are, IMHO, wholly unrelated to what this thread is about and therefore amount, again, IMHO, to strawmen arguements as regards what IDONT mentioned.

Now, as I have said...it is not impossible...but in the current environment and with current technology stacked up against US carriers, it is would be very, very difficult to accomplish...and then the consequences, even if somehow they could accomplish it would likely mean that that nation no longer had any Naval or other major military capability soon thereafter.

With time...if the US continues to draw down, and others build up...anything is possible. But it would take a long time to get to that point (short of some tremndous leap in technology that surprises evryone...and that is also possible, for example a deployed, reliable, long range, smart weapon-supercavitating system)...outside of something like that, I do not believe the US Navy will be idly letting others surpass them if they can help it.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

It's impossible to know for sure that there is no enemy activity in a given area. No one is invincible. Carriers are predictable not only in narrow straits but also as they do circles during flight ops. The Titanic was unsinkable also, along with Lusitania. Who was grasping for straws then? Or when CV-64 lost 18 sailors fighting fire in the boiler machinery room, while all topside were at their "abandon ship" stations? Or during fire on USS Forrestall?

BLUEJACKET when were 18 sailors liked on the Connie? They never went to abandon ship stations. That's an old sea story. This is what really happened.

August 2, 1988 off the US West Coast USS CONSTELLATION suffers an engine room fire which forces the carrier to cancel scheduled operations and return to San Diego, Calif. The fire, believed to be caused by a fuel oil leak, begins with an explosion in one of the ship's four engine rooms around noon and is finally extinguished about 9 hours later after several subsequent explosions caused by heat from the initial fire. 20 sailors suffer burns, bruises, and smoke inhalation .

As far as the Forrestal is concerned read the history of the ship's fire on 29 July 1967. Where does it say that Capt Beling called away abandon ship?? Read any book or article about the tragic fire. He never did call to go to abandon ship stations. No way, no how. You listened to way too many sea stories. You should know better.

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No ship is unsinkable. You should also know that civillian ships are not built to the same standards as Naval vessels. Those ships had large open spaces and no where near the compartmentation of a USN CV. Of course you should know that you posted you were on board CV-63 & CVN-71.

No one is posting an CV is impossible to sink. Just very difficult.

 

[BLUEJACKET]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

BLUEJACKET when were 18 sailors killed on the Connie? They never went to abandon ship stations. That's an old sea story. ...As far as the Forrestal is concerned read the history of the ship's fire on 29 July 1967. Where does it say that Capt Beling called away abandon ship?? Read any book or article about the tragic fire. He never did call to go to abandon ship stations. No way, no how. You listened to way too many sea stories. You should know better.
No ship is unsinkable. You should also know that civillian ships are not built to the same standards as Naval vessels. Those ships had large open spaces and no where near the compartmentation of a USN CV. Of course you should know that you posted you were on board CV-63 & CVN-71.
QUOTE]
Captain Jack J. Samar, Jr., Commanding Officer of USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63), who was on CV-64 at the time, told us about that fire.

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Would he lie to the whole crew?
I never implied that Forrestal was ready to be abandoned. That fire was not due to enemy action, but similar one could happen if the flight deck full of planes recieves mortar/RPG rounds while transiting the Suez or Singapore.
Of course I know the difference between a warship and a cruiseliner- I've been on both types, as a sailor & a passenger, respectively. But as those liners were louded as unsinkable I decided to mention them, since the our CBGs are also described as "fortesses at sea". That may be so, but even the most impragnable fortress has its weaknesses.
Did we bomb Yemeni & Jordanian forces after our ships were attacked in port? America has too many enemies around the world, in and out of uniform- in a conflict with any state power that state could use their own or other personnel, and their backers/origin may not be positively IDed for a long time.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Captain Jack J. Samar, Jr., Commanding Officer of USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63), who was on CV-64 at the time, told us about that fire.

Perhaps you misunderstood the Capt when he was speaking. 18 sailors killed is a disaster? Probally 18 sailors hurt. I've searched the web and found no such information. I lived in San Diego at the time of the fire and was on active duty at NAS Miramar AIMD the time. If such a tragedy occuried I would have known about it. I had shipmates that worked for me that were onboard at the time. I just remember them comming back early from an at sea period. The incident would have certainly would have been front page news.

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Maybe he meant the Kitty Kawk on Dec 11, 1973? I remember that. They word was the bodies were piled up by the escape trunk. They could not get out. Grewsome.

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December 11, 1973. Seven crewmen were killed in a boiler-room blaze. The fire could be extinguished by the crew, and KITTY HAWK was towed to Subic Bay, Philippines, for repairs.

As an added note there was a crash on the flight deck on the Nimitz in 1981 that killed 14 sailors. I remember that being headline news on CNN.

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Did we bomb Yemeni & Jordanian forces after our ships were attacked in port? America has too many enemies around the world, in and out of uniform- in a conflict with any state power that state could use their own or other personnel, and their backers/origin may not be positively IDed for a long time

With that I will agree. That is why the War on Terror will last for a long...long..time.

War sucks.