SteelBird
Colonel
New year new number, everything new. Maybe next year you'll have something like 210kn.
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V
- Thread starter Deino
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Blackstone
Brigadier
I'm only surprised fanbois haven't already claimed that.
Does get a little tiresome trying to keep the conversation relevant to what we have as opposed to what we wished we had, what we are working on??
When Chengdu does get the WS-15 on line, realistically it will likely be in the 140 to 160 class, the F-119 has lots of time and development behind it, the F-135 even more, and we are talking about upping the performance?? but that all takes lots of time and testing and happens incrementally.
If the WS-15 comes out with thrust 5 to 10% higher than the current Russian Engine, they will be doing something pretty amazing, and that additional thrust will come with performance benefits. If the WS-15 is simply in the same thrust range as the Russian engine, it will still be worth bragging on. I would suggest people have realistic expectations, because fairy tales only come true in books.
Real people have to work hare to "keep up", it takes extraordinary effort and quality control to substantially increase thrust ?? rumors do not "cut it", but hey folks are free to say or do as they please, but when someone is attempting to bring the discussion "back down to earth" in the interest of integrity, others who really don't have any rock solid sources need to quit accusing them of trolling?? that brings nothing substantive to the discussion, and diminishes everyone and their credibility.
The Chinese purchasing the SU-35 is a reality check friends, it tells us things are not advancing quite as rapidly as necessary, no shame in that, it is what it is. That's not 24 SU-35s today, but 4 and next year hopefully 10, and 10 more the following year. If they are happy with these birds, they might even pick up the PAK-FA partnership where India left off???
Hyperwarp
Captain
135 kN - 140 kN values is speculated for the current engine. I don't know where the 190 kN came from but the target for the WS-15 final version seems to be 180 kN. This is from 2012 China Aerospace Propulsion Technology Summit -
Haven't heard anything specific about the WS-15 since then. It seem it would take at least 15 years to successfully introduce a new turbofan. From what I have heard/read actual WS-15 program commenced in 2005/2006. So 2020+ for the WS-15.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
Uh, the WS-15 is a DIFFERENT engine and has its own starting point in its design. It is a larger engine than the WS-10 or AL-31 so what sense does it make that it starts at 140kN? This is a machine designed to reach parameters, not an athlete who starts his season at a low then works up to a high. Did the F-135 "come online" at 150kN then get slowly improved up to 190+? I don't think so (unless you define coming online as early working prototype). You can have incremental improvements from a base (such as AL-31 starting at 120, then going up by variant into 140) but for you to design a new engine, that means that the new base performance has to be significantly higher than the performance of any variant of your existing engines to justify the investment, and later variants shall be improved upon that new higher base.
Personally, I think 160kN is a really admirable improvement over the 130-135 of the Taishan, and in all honesty, seeing the J-20 fly as it does with 135kN engines, have wondered why they want/need something as powerful as 180kN on it, but all the sources I've seen say it is 180kN. Hyperwarp says he saw a Russian source say it is 160kN, and another source say the prototype already reached 160kN (which I linked) but was being refined to meet the 180kN goal so maybe that's what the Russia source meant... and maybe the Russian source deliberately said that because 180kN actually surpasses the goal of thier Izdeliye-30 project. But the consensus among most of the sources, both Chinese and non-Chinese seem to say 180kN so I don't see a reason to make up numbers like 140 or 160 simply because that's seen as already a pretty impressive achievement.
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Jura The idiot
General
They have indeed ! Over there at the PDF there's a guy who's claiming as if he's fighting for life that already '2001' in 2011 uses a close-to production standard WS-15 delivering more than 210 kN of thrust. This beast by his own calculation can easily reach Mach 3 and out-turn any other fighter on earth.
He is also convinced that China (CAC/AVIC and the POLAAF) are running a massive game of deception especially by using a nozzle that only looks like an AL-31FN, but specificly made to fool such "ignorant arrogant Westerns" (like me).
... so if You want to find ridiculous stuff, You will surely find it, but there's no need to repeatedly bash each and every achievement or to deem everything You hear and read as faked (= alternative facts) only since You it does not fit Your opinion.
The issue is quite complicated and often more confusing; there are for example reports that the WS-15 is a completely new clean-sheet design (what I think too), while others say it is based on the Russian R-79's core once used in the Yak-141.
Also I'm not sure if Chengdu Aero Engines is involved ? Most reports I know say it's a product developed by the Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute and manufactured by the Xi'an Aero Engine Corporation.
Anyway, from the latest unconfirmed but IMO reliable posts/reports the WS-15 was at first targeted to reach 160kN (during experimental works in 2009) and a thrust/weight ratio of 9 and this target was reached ... some however say later than planned.
From then I know reports that the first prototype WS-15 was delivered in August 2014 and other reports from August 2015 noted that the WS-15 is ready for altitude testings. The most recent one stated that it's ground testing was completed on 21. August 2015 with the projected (for that phase) thrust goal reached (some say 161 kN), even if in the end a thrust of +180kN is planned with a thrust/weight ratio of 9.5 - 10.5.
Following this so far no more rumors were heard, but some assume a transfer of the tests on the aerial Il-76 testbed were "in preparation" (some say even it was ready for the testbed by the end of 2016).
So what to conclude ??? IMO we should take a close look at the CFTE and especially to the Il-76 if it will get the WS-20 removed and replaced by something different. Again, maybe we can ret some rumours about test flights of the WS-15 this year ... at best; but maybe they use a different testbed at another location and we won't notice anything.
Should I make a guess I hope for some more news during 2017 and maybe in 2019 we can see a converted J-20 prototype testing the WS-15 similar to the J-11WS testing the once WS-10....
In conclusion I see no chance of a WS-15 on any of the J-20s earlier than 2019 ...
Just my 2 Cents,
Deino
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@AFB: IIRC, the flat nozzles on the F-22 are supposed to reduce engine thrust by 17%, so if you take them off and assume 160 kN, you get roughly 192 KN, which is about the same as on the F-135. The initial thrust of operational WS-15 is unknown, but 160 would be on the conservative side considering that it's a new design of a later generation than the WS-10 / AL-31s. That said, we have little information on the WS-15 or the J-20's engines. We can probably assume that the J-20 will hit IOC with AL-31, and that it will receive a later upgrade to WS-15.
the only folks wet dreaming are the 180-190 folks, I'm gonna stand by my 140 to 160, as that's a solid and reasonable goal and expectation, I was wrong on here "once", the Chinese did buy the SU-35. I have a record, I stand by it, if? and when I am wrong, I admit, make appropriate apologies and "move on". If the WS-15 reaches 140 that will be a start, and we can reasonably expect to see WS-15s start to populate on the J-20, in fact that is the most likely scenario, I do expect they are hoping to reach 160, and in your own words?? "160kn is a really admirable improvement",,,, I'd say we are in principle agreement.
If and when the Chinese develop and build a 140kn engine, it will be in the J-20, or the very least Flankers, when it is reliable and economical enough to do so, you should trust me on this. "in the real world, its "crawl, walk, run", that's how it works, nobody is born a "track start", the genetics might be there, but it takes a lot of development and hard work. So my prediction is 140kn pushing eventually to 160, and yes those early prototypes are very much a part of the whole genesis of this type of advanced development, you can't "fool mother nature"???
Those SU-35s tell us a lot more, that most of us don't want to hear, but I'll let you come to those conclusions on your own. I have said the J-20 is a very fine "clean sheet Chinese aircraft", and its one that anyone could be proud of!
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