China's SCS Strategy Thread

The article says the incident occurred in international waters (not that the US has a great record in terms of knowing or admitting when they are or are not in international waters). I wonder if it occurred in waters claimed by China (territorial or EEZ) but not recognised by the US.

#754 Lethe, Today at 1:37 AM

above is the question about
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/pl...-videos-temp-closed.t7079/page-76#post-428902
but the thread
PLAN breaking news, pics, & videos (Temp Closed)
(at the time I slept :) so I'll respond here:

I found only a description of the location in Internet (about 50 nm to the north-west Subic Bay) so I used
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and quickly put the red line representing about 100 km approximately in northwest direction:
NfhHn.jpg

and while this "projection" is not perfect:
AI1Op.jpg
still the answer to the above question would seem to be negative
 
only now I read (dated Thu Dec 15, 2016 | 3:41am EST)
China installs weapons systems on artificial islands: U.S. think tank
China appears to have installed weapons, including anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems, on all seven of the artificial islands it has built in the South China Sea, a U.S. think tank reported, citing new satellite imagery.

The Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative (AMTI) at the Center for Strategic and International Studies said its findings, made available first to Reuters on Wednesday, come despite statements by the Chinese leadership that Beijing has no intention to militarize the islands in the strategic trade route, where territory is claimed by several countries.

China said on Thursday that, while its construction on islands and reefs in the South China Sea was mainly for civilian use, it was "legitimate and normal" for it to take steps to defend its territory.

AMTI said it had been tracking construction of hexagonal structures on Fiery Cross, Mischief and Subi reefs in the Spratly Islands since June and July. China has already built military length airstrips on these islands.

"It now seems that these structures are an evolution of point-defense fortifications already constructed at China's smaller facilities on Gaven, Hughes, Johnson, and Cuarteron reefs," it said citing images taken in November.

"This model has gone through another evolution at (the) much-larger bases on Fiery Cross, Subi and Mischief reefs."

Satellite images of Hughes and Gaven reefs showed what appeared to be anti-aircraft guns and what were likely to be close-in weapons systems (CIWS) to protect against cruise missile strikes, it said.

Images from Fiery Cross Reef showed towers that likely contained targeting radar, it said.

AMTI said covers had been installed on the towers at Fiery Cross, but the size of platforms on these and the covers suggested they concealed defense systems similar to those at the smaller reefs.

"These gun and probable CIWS emplacements show that Beijing is serious about defense of its artificial islands in case of an armed contingency in the South China Sea," it said.

"Among other things, they would be the last line of defense against cruise missiles launched by the United States or others against these soon-to-be-operational air bases."

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told a regular news briefing in Beijing that he "did not understand" the situation referred to in the report.

"The Nansha islands are China's inherent territory. China's building of facilities and necessary territorial defensive facilities on its own territory is completely normal," he said, using China's name for the Spratlys.

"If China's building of normal facilities and deploying necessary territorial defensive facilities on its own islands is considered militarization, then what is the sailing of fleets into the South China Sea?" he added, in an apparent reference to U.S. "freedom of navigation" patrols in the waters.

PHILIPPINES SAYS "BIG CONCERN"

The Philippines, one of several countries with competing territorial claims in the South China Sea, said it was still verifying the report.

"But if true it is a big concern for us and the international community who use the South China Sea lanes for trade," said Defense Minister Delfin Lorenza during a visit to Singapore with President Rodrigo Duterte.

"It would mean that the Chinese are militarizing the area which is not good."

Vietnam's foreign ministry did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

AMTI director Greg Poling said AMTI had spent months trying to figure out what the purposes of the structures was.

"This is the first time that we're confident in saying they are anti-aircraft and CIWS emplacements. We did not know that they had systems this big and this advanced there," he told Reuters.

"This is militarization. The Chinese can argue that it's only for defensive purposes, but if you are building giant anti-aircraft gun and CIWS emplacements, it means that you are prepping for a future conflict.

"They keep saying they are not militarizing, but they could deploy fighter jets and surface-to-air missiles tomorrow if they wanted to," he said. "Now they have all the infrastructure in place for these interlocking rings of defense and power projection."The report said the installations would likely back up a defensive umbrella provided by a future deployment of mobile surface-to-air missile (SAM) platforms like the HQ-9 system deployed to Woody Island in the Paracel Islands, farther to the north in the South China Sea.

It forecast that such a deployment could happen "at any time," noting a recent Fox News report that components for SAM systems have been spotted at the southeastern Chinese port of Jieyang, possibly destined for the South China Sea.


"READY YOUR SLINGSHOT"

Singapore-based South China Sea expert Ian Storey said he believed the move would help ready the facilities for the probable next step of China flying jet fighters and military transport planes to its new runways.

“From the outset it’s been quite obvious that the artificial islands were designed to serve as military outposts in the South China Sea,” said Storey, of the ISEAS Yusof Ishak Institute.

“Even while tensions are at a relatively low ebb, I think we can expect to see military flights to the Spratlys in the coming months – including the first jet fighters," Storey said.

The United States has criticized what it called China's militarization of its maritime outposts and stressed the need for freedom of navigation by conducting periodic air and naval patrols near them that have angered Beijing.

U.S. President-elect Donald Trump, who takes office on Jan. 20, has also criticized Chinese behavior in the South China Sea while signaling he may adopt a tougher approach to China's assertive behavior in the region than President Barack Obama.

The State Department said it would not comment on intelligence matters, but spokesman John Kirby added:

"We consistently call on China as well as other claimants to commit to peacefully managing and resolving disputes, to refrain from further land reclamation and construction of new facilities and the militarization of disputed features."

China's Defense Ministry said in a statement on its microblog on Thursday that it was "legitimate and lawful" for it to place defensive military installations on islands where it said Beijing had "indisputable sovereignty".

"If someone makes a show of force at your front door, would you not ready your slingshot?" it said.
source is Reuters
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Old news go back few pages I already posted it nothing but sensationalism to prod the US government to take stronger measure. Anything other than China armed with sling shot is consider provocation. Well US ring China with bases bristle with the latest weapon is nothing
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
only now I read (dated Thu Dec 15, 2016 | 3:41am EST)
China installs weapons systems on artificial islands: U.S. think tank

source is Reuters
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
What of it? Like any other nation, China has the right to install civilian and military assets on its own territory. The notion somehow it's fine for other nations to build on their territories but not for China is rank hypocrisy.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Old news go back few pages I already posted it nothing but sensationalism to prod the US government to take stronger measure. Anything other than China armed with sling shot is consider provocation. Well US ring China with bases bristle with the latest weapon is nothing
Plus these weapons systems while good enough against regional militaries, would provide only a token defense against an advanced adversary like the USN or JMSDF.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Plus these weapons systems while good enough against regional militaries, would provide only a token defense against an advanced adversary like the USN or JMSDF.
China's DF-21 and the advance DF-26 AsBM are more than enough to handle any USN or JMSDF thinking that the entire Pacific world and so called status quo revolves around them.
 
Yesterday at 11:32 AM
I noticed as it's on top of Breaking News at gazeta.ru right now
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

which through
ТАСС

Подробнее на ТАСС:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

links to
China confirms US request for seized drone
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
now I read China to return seized U.S. drone, says Washington 'hyping up' incident
China will return an underwater U.S. drone seized by a naval vessel this week in the South China Sea, both countries said on Saturday, but Beijing complained that Washington had been "hyping up" the incident.

U.S. President-elect Donald Trump, who has vowed to take an aggressive approach in dealing with China over its economic and military policies, jumped on the unusual drone seizure with a pair of provocative tweets, accusing Beijing of stealing the equipment.

The drone, known as an unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV), was taken on Thursday, the first seizure of its kind in recent memory. The Pentagon went public with its complaint after the action and said on Saturday it had secured a deal to get the drone back.

"Through direct engagement with Chinese authorities, we have secured an understanding that the Chinese will return the UUV to the United States," Pentagon spokesman Peter Cook said in a statement.

The drone, which the Pentagon said was operating lawfully was collecting data about the salinity, temperature and clarity of the water about 50 nautical miles northwest of Subic Bay, off the Philippines.

It was seized just as the USNS Bowditch was about to retrieve it, U.S. officials said.

China's Defense Ministry said a Chinese naval vessel discovered a piece of "unidentified equipment" and checked it to prevent any navigational safety issues before discovering it was a U.S. drone.

"China decided to return it to the U.S. side in an appropriate manner, and China and the U.S. have all along been in communication about it," the ministry said on its website.

"During this process, the U.S. side's unilateral and open hyping up is inappropriate, and is not beneficial to the smooth resolution of this issue. We express regret at this," it added.


'KEEP IT!'

Trump, a Republican who takes office on Jan. 20, waded into the dispute on Twitter early on Saturday from his seaside resort club Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, where he plans to spend the holidays.

"China steals United States Navy research drone in international waters - rips it out of water and takes it to China in unprecedented act," he said.

After China said it would return the drone, Jason Miller, a spokesman for Trump, tweeted a link to a news story, saying: "@realdonaldtrump gets it done."

There was, however, no evidence that Trump had played any role. U.S. officials said the negotiations took place in Beijing during the overnight hours in the United States. Miller did not respond to requests for comment.

Hours later, while riding in a motorcade back to his resort, Trump tweeted his second jab. "We should tell China that we don't want the drone they stole back - let them keep it!" he said.

Trump has previously threatened to declare China a currency manipulator and force changes in U.S.-Chinese trade policy, which he says has led to the greatest theft of American jobs in history.

Trump has also raised questions about the most sensitive part of the U.S.-China relationship: whether Washington would stick to its nearly four-decades-old policy of recognizing that Taiwan is part of "one China."

After his Nov. 8 election victory, Trump accepted a congratulatory phone call from President Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan, prompting China to lodge a diplomatic protest.

President Barack Obama said on Friday it was fine for Trump to review Washington's policy toward Taiwan, but he cautioned that a shift could lead to significant consequences in the U.S. relationship with Beijing.

"There's probably no bilateral relationship that carries more significance and where there's also the potential, if that relationship breaks down or goes into a full-conflict mode, that everybody is worse off," Obama told reporters.


HEIGHTENED TENSIONS

The drone incident has raised fresh concerns about China's increased military presence and aggressive posture in the energy-rich South China Sea, through which about $5 trillion in trade is shipped every year. Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam also have claims to the waterway.

New satellite imagery shows China has installed weapons, including anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems, on all seven artificial islands it has built in the South China Sea, a U.S. research group said this week.

Without directly saying whether the U.S. drone was operating in waters Beijing considers its own, China's Defense Ministry said U.S. ships and aircraft have for a long period been carrying out surveillance and surveys in "the presence" of Chinese waters.

"China is resolutely opposed to this, and demands the U.S. stops this kind of activity," it said.

China will remain on alert for these sorts of activities and take necessary steps to deal with them, the ministry said without elaborating.

The Global Times, published by the ruling Communist Party's official People's Daily, earlier cited an unidentified Chinese source as saying they believed the issue would be resolved smoothly.
source is Reuters
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
China's DF-21 and the advance DF-26 AsBM are more than enough to handle any USN or JMSDF thinking that the entire Pacific world and so called status quo revolves around them.
Not really. The USN already has an answer to the DF-21D and the DF-26 in the form of the SM-3 and SM-6, both successfully tested on live targets. Meanwhile neither missile has ever been successfully tested on a live target. Even if/when successfully tested, the DF-21D and DF-26 will be just another weapon in the PLAN arsenal, not nearly as much a game-changer as you are trying to imply here.

And like it or not, the current status quo in the Pacific DOES revolve around the USN. Not forever, and maybe not even for long, but right now the "status quo" involves 11 carriers and several dozen of the most advanced destroyers and submarines that money can buy along with thousands of advanced fighters. There is nothing on the planet that can beat this. Until there is something that can, that's the status quo.
 
Last edited:
Yesterday at 11:32 AM

now I read China to return seized U.S. drone, says Washington 'hyping up' incident

source is Reuters
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
LOL BreakindDefense is sometimes wild:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

[UPDATE: Early Saturday afternoon, the Pentagon said China had agreed to return the Unmanned Underwater Vehicle: “Through direct engagement with Chinese authorities, we have secured an understanding that the Chinese will return the UUV to the United States.” It’s possible the Chinese are feeling remorse, or that the captain who seized the drone acted without orders, but it’s also entirely possible Beijing feels it’s made its point that other nations operate in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
only on Chinese sufferance. 24 hours is also probably plenty of time for China’s skilled hackers to copy the drone’s software, for use by Chinese drone makers, and download the data it collected, although this was apparently only routine oceanographic data like salinity.]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 
LOL BreakindDefense is sometimes wild:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

[UPDATE: Early Saturday afternoon, the Pentagon said China had agreed to return the Unmanned Underwater Vehicle: “Through direct engagement with Chinese authorities, we have secured an understanding that the Chinese will return the UUV to the United States.” It’s possible the Chinese are feeling remorse, or that the captain who seized the drone acted without orders, but it’s also entirely possible Beijing feels it’s made its point that other nations operate in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
only on Chinese sufferance. 24 hours is also probably plenty of time for China’s skilled hackers to copy the drone’s software, for use by Chinese drone makers, and download the data it collected, although this was apparently only routine oceanographic data like salinity.]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Through either ignorance or mischaracterization this report, as do many others, fail to mention that "routine oceanographic data like salinity" is highly valuable data for submarine warfare.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Top