J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Blitzo]

actually, its fair to assume that a great many assumptions are made here my brother?? "accurate assessments grow from the seeds of logical assumptions" AFB 2/14/2016

I said I do not think many people have made the specific assumption here -- i.e.: that most people here are aware of the lack of reliable information regarding J-20's many capabilities and level of technological advancement and do not immediately assume that it is "at the head of its class" as you described.

 

[Air Force Brat]

It is also very dangerous to assume the J-20 is behind the curve of the F-22 and F-35.

actually it is quite reasonable to make that assumption my dear Dr. Watson, the danger would only apply were we to become aggressors, the real danger would be for those predisposed to become aggressors, in assuming that they were superior to the F-22/F-35.

I have been quite complimentary to the J-20 because Chengdu have been very focused, and working very hard to maintaining forward momentum. I would hate to see this beautiful airplane become an element in an equation that would steer someone to provoking an aggressive incident, or inciting a population to feel "invincible" that my friend would be dangerous?

 

[Blackstone]

The J-20 comes to mind?? and the AL-31FN is actually a very fine engine, I would remind you that WW-IIs P-51 Mustang was powered by the Rolls Royce Merlin V-12, and did remarkably well with a foreign engine?? LOL

Since you mentioned North American P-51 wit licenced Merlin engines, facts are US was behind UK in fighter engines, and the Merlin was clearly better than what the US had, so it license built them. The Mustang was "head of the class" in everything except domestic engines.

As for the J-20, I see it as true 5th Gen, and speaks well of China's impressive advancements in just a decade, but it's still behind US 5th Gen technology; which is the true "head of class." I don't think that's a controversial statement.

so all this NIH think is rather counterproductive, I would imagine the J-20 will launch and mature nicely with a Russian engine, so lets be pragmatic here, the Chinese obviously do not share your lack of enthusiasm for the AL-31FN, but have instead gone with what is available.

Even the Chinese defense officials and experts say lack of world-class jet engine capability is a weak link in their defense chain, so if we take them at their word, then progress on that front could be measured by how many world-class engines are built, and how many end up on their premium air crafts.

 

[Equation]

actually it is quite reasonable to make that assumption my dear Dr. Watson, the danger would only apply were we to become aggressors, the real danger would be for those predisposed to become aggressors, in assuming that they were superior to the F-22/F-35.

I have been quite complimentary to the J-20 because Chengdu have been very focused, and working very hard to maintaining forward momentum. I would hate to see this beautiful airplane become an element in an equation that would steer someone to provoking an aggressive incident, or inciting a population to feel "invincible" that my friend would be dangerous?

Yes and who is sending the F-22 in Japan assuming it is against the DPRK just at the door step of China? Why send a stealth squadron against a potential foe with hardly any aerial threat at all? The danger here is assuming one will ALWAYS have superior tech over the other regardless of budget or domestic political problems.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Yes and who is sending the F-22 in Japan assuming it is against the DPRK just at the door step of China? Why send a stealth squadron against a potential foe with hardly any aerial threat at all? The danger here is assuming one will ALWAYS have superior tech over the other regardless of budget or domestic political problems.

We are my brother, and being a resident of Houston, TEXAS, you of all people should
"know" that the US is a O threat to China. Now the DPRK, somebody really ought to pull his head out of his rear end?

The F-22 is there my friend to mean business, and if necessary to do business in the very tightly defended airspace of the DPRK, only the F-22 is equipped to do business in that type of environment, with relative impugnity. The B-2 is way to much airplane to place at risk unless there were some very high value target?

So make no mistake, the DPRK is heavily defended by AA, one of the reasons they aren't really to concerned about developing a fighter force?

How else would you expect us to project power on that turf???

 

[Air Force Brat]

Since you mentioned North American P-51 wit licenced Merlin engines, facts are US was behind UK in fighter engines, and the Merlin was clearly better than what the US had, so it license built them. The Mustang was "head of the class" in everything except domestic engines.

As for the J-20, I see it as true 5th Gen, and speaks well of China's impressive advancements in just a decade, but it's still behind US 5th Gen technology; which is the true "head of class." I don't think that's a controversial statement.


Even the Chinese defense officials and experts say lack of world-class jet engine capability is a weak link in their defense chain, so if we take them at their word, then progress on that front could be measured by how many world-class engines are built, and how many end up on their premium air crafts.

IIRC the P-51 A and B were powered by our own Allison, an engine which is roughly equivalent to the AL-31FN as opposed to the F-117, or even the WS-15? I did say head of class thinking of China's own Air Force, as opposed to "World Class"? which is how I would characterize lumping everyone's aircraft together.

 

[kwaigonegin]

IIRC the P-51 A and B were powered by our own Allison, an engine which is roughly equivalent to the AL-31FN as opposed to the F-117, or even the WS-15? I did say head of class thinking of China's own Air Force, as opposed to "World Class"? which is how I would characterize lumping everyone's aircraft together.

reminds me of the F14s. Once they reengined with F110s it brought new life and power to the old bird. Was able to do thing her designers envisioned the plane doing but wasn't able to with the initial turbofans. I see the J20 along similar paths..

 

[Blitzo]

reminds me of the F14s. Once they reengined with F110s it brought new life and power to the old bird. Was able to do thing her designers envisioned the plane doing but wasn't able to with the initial turbofans. I see the J20 along similar paths..

The F-14 is a decent comparison, as it was originally intended to use the F100 (F401 technically) engine but settled for TF30s instead, before eventually installing the F110 later on.

But one possible difference between the F-14's engine situation from the J-20, is that J-20 probably will always have WS-15 as the intended engine whereas the original intended engine for the F-14 (F100) was discarded during development for the TF30s and a better engine was only procured in the form of the entirely different F110 later on.
There is no alternative to WS-15 for the J-20, so it is virtually guaranteed that the J-20's eventual intended engine configuration will be with the WS-15.

 

[Air Force Brat]

The F-14 is a decent comparison, as it was originally intended to use the F100 (F401 technically) engine but settled for TF30s instead, before eventually installing the F110 later on.

But one possible difference between the F-14's engine situation from the J-20, is that J-20 probably will always have WS-15 as the intended engine whereas the original intended engine for the F-14 (F100) was discarded during development for the TF30s and a better engine was only procured in the form of the entirely different F110 later on.
There is no alternative to WS-15 for the J-20, so it is virtually guaranteed that the J-20's eventual intended engine configuration will be with the WS-15.

While I fully agree Blitzo, I would remind all that the WS-15 is very much an unknown quantity, at what stage in development, so far as we know, it has flown only on a transport aircraft pylon?? So, I at one time made the statement that the J-20 might well fly with the F-117??? as an interim powerplant, it is possible, but is it likely??? and as to the SU-35 being bought as an interim??? it is possible, but is it really going to happen??? I am as skeptical as my friend the engineer, I think he remains very much in touch with the pulse of the PLAAF.

As I stated, the J-20 is presently at the head of her class, I believe it is very important that China continue to fully support this class leading aircraft, and do what is necessary to bring it up to speed. I say that as a friend and admirer of the Chinese people, Chinese ingenuity, and one hopeful of a better relationship long term with China. If our relationship as nations were to go south, I would be very disappointed, and not be as supportive of the J-20??? but I would still be a big fan of the Chinese people whom I love and care about.

Remember, my 5th birthday was on Okinawa, the big treat in my early life was lunch after church at the Chinese restaurant at the CAT terminal. I have had Asian friends my whole life, one day a week "Yashi-Co" came to our house, did laundry, ironed, and played Momma, she was a sweety, and I loved her dearly! Our whole family thought very highly of her, she was sweet, respectful, and worked very hard, and I have no doubt she loved not only me, but my rotten brother "JIM"!

Oh, and I still love going to the "Chinese Restaurant", Mr Yan was the egg-roll king! nobody else will ever come close.

 

[Blitzo]

While I fully agree Blitzo, I would remind all that the WS-15 is very much an unknown quantity, at what stage in development, so far as we know, it has flown only on a transport aircraft pylon?? So, I at one time made the statement that the J-20 might well fly with the F-117??? as an interim powerplant, it is possible, but is it likely??? and as to the SU-35 being bought as an interim??? it is possible, but is it really going to happen??? I am as skeptical as my friend the engineer, I think he remains very much in touch with the pulse of the PLAAF.

None of what you said particularly contradicts what I wrote, as I was only referring to comparing the F-14 engine situation with the J-20 engine situation, saying that there are meaningful differences between what F-14 happened and what J-20 could experience.