ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

plawolf

Lieutenant General
In support of the notion of China employing cruise missiles in Iraq and Syria I found this:
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,
from which I cite:

I have no doubt "ballistic missiles" is a translation mistake for "cruise missiles". The missiles would then be given targets by the Baghdad center.

Actually, I think that story would actually make Chinese direct involvement less likely, as it looks like my early suggestion of a gentlemen's agreement between Russian and China seems to be validated, with the Russians doing a bang up job of killing terrorists that China are most concerned about, no doubt for undisclosed Chinese support, in the form of money and/or logistical and intelligence etc.

As such, there is little reason why China would not need to get its own hands dirty by engaging directly.

China has very different priorities to the Russians (and also the west). While the Russians and the west loves to show off new kit and use them in real wars, with an eye on the international arms trade, China is far more interested in concealing as much of its capabilities as possible.

Indeed, the vast majority of the assets China might use in any military intervention in Syria would be unavailable for export anyways, so there won't bet he same pressures and temptations on China to use them so they can show them off.
 

delft

Brigadier
really? technically speaking, China must have some "road-mobile Dongfeng" which launched from the west of China would hit targets, with multiple warheads, in Syria; such a strike should be much easier than using a DF-21D against an aircraft carrier doing 32 knots in the middle of a sea and applying countermeasures ... I wouldn't be surprised, and will tell you why:
as I indicated
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/isis-isil-conflict-in-iraq-syria-thread.t6913/page-170#post-367773
I've been watching the Caspian Sea Fleet for more than a year (Russian, like dozen of posts, but I also posted about Turkmenistan
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/turkey-military-news-reports-data-etc.t7329/page-2#post-341182
and have files for Azerbaijani, Kazakh), but it had never occurred to me it could launch a strike against targets in Syria ... until, of course, right after the attack LOL!
The use of Iranian waters is mentioned:
On October 14, Sun Jianguo visited Tehran to discuss the possibility of Chinese warships to use the Iranian waters to shell the ISIS positions in Syria and Iraq with ballistic missiles. They will move through the Inran’s air space.
But it is likely that we won't see any of this as US is already motivated to become more active in destroying ISIL as the "moderate" rebels are being "putinized" so that ISIL looses its value.
 
... "putinized"...
LOL I haven't seen this used before

now, can anybody post links describing how it's going on the ground? (I mean Military description on tactical level, not servers with chest-thumping "analyses" like: once we retake ... it will be ours forever :)
if I'm not mistaken, last week Mr. Assad launched three offensive at once:
  1. close to Damascus
  2. against the pocket around Talbiseh: https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/isis-isil-conflict-in-iraq-syria-thread.t6913/page-187#post-369654
  3. against Aleppo
I admit I don't know much about the Syrian Civil War, that's why I'm asking for sources I could follow
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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LOL I haven't seen this used before

now, can anybody post links describing how it's going on the ground? (I mean Military description on tactical level, not servers with chest-thumping "analyses" like: once we retake ... it will be ours forever :)
if I'm not mistaken, last week Mr. Assad launched three offensive at once:
  1. close to Damascus
  2. against the pocket around Talbiseh: https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/isis-isil-conflict-in-iraq-syria-thread.t6913/page-187#post-369654
  3. against Aleppo
I admit I don't know much about the Syrian Civil War, that's why I'm asking for sources I could follow

You might want to follow the Saker in that case.
He has been playing down expectations on this operation since inception and he is claiming that the SAA offensives have either made slow or poor progress on the ground or stalled altogether.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
You might want to follow the Saker in that case.
He has been playing down expectations on this operation since inception and he is claiming that the SAA offensives have either made slow or poor progress on the ground or stalled altogether.

Any word on Iranian involvement? I always thought that was the deal, the Russians provide tac air and diplomatic support and cover, while the Iranians provide the ground troops to at least form the tip of the spear to allow them to roll back ISIS and any other armed groups and gradually retake the whole country.

Has someone not held up their end of the bargain, or has this developed into an full fledged proxy war, with western supplied arms and equipment blunting the ground offensives?
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
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Any word on Iranian involvement? I always thought that was the deal, the Russians provide tac air and diplomatic support and cover, while the Iranians provide the ground troops to at least form the tip of the spear to allow them to roll back ISIS and any other armed groups and gradually retake the whole country.

Has someone not held up their end of the bargain, or has this developed into an full fledged proxy war, with western supplied arms and equipment blunting the ground offensives?

It is far from clear, but you can probably put all the elements you mention into the mix by some degree or other.
Ultimately, many of these rebel/militant groups are not amateurs and know what they are doing. Many do seem to have plenty of supplies from abroad and of course many of the attacks are into territory that the rebels have been holding for some years and so have had time to fortify and criss cross with underground bunkers and tunnels.

It could well be that what we are seeing are essential probing attacks to establish the true level of resistance and enemy infrastructure to ensure that the right forces are sent to the right place when the real big push begins.
 

Brumby

Major
really? technically speaking, China must have some "road-mobile Dongfeng" which launched from the west of China would hit targets, with multiple warheads, in Syria; such a strike should be much easier than using a DF-21D against an aircraft carrier doing 32 knots in the middle of a sea and applying countermeasures ... I wouldn't be surprised, and will tell you why:
as I indicated
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/isis-isil-conflict-in-iraq-syria-thread.t6913/page-170#post-367773
I've been watching the Caspian Sea Fleet for more than a year (Russian, like dozen of posts, but I also posted about Turkmenistan
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/turkey-military-news-reports-data-etc.t7329/page-2#post-341182
and have files for Azerbaijani, Kazakh), but it had never occurred to me it could launch a strike against targets in Syria ... until, of course, right after the attack LOL!

Ballistic missiles are extremely expensive to be used on ISIL type targets. That would be a waste of valuable resources.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It is far from clear, but you can probably put all the elements you mention into the mix by some degree or other.
Ultimately, many of these rebel/militant groups are not amateurs and know what they are doing. Many do seem to have plenty of supplies from abroad and of course many of the attacks are into territory that the rebels have been holding for some years and so have had time to fortify and criss cross with underground bunkers and tunnels.

It could well be that what we are seeing are essential probing attacks to establish the true level of resistance and enemy infrastructure to ensure that the right forces are sent to the right place when the real big push begins.

Good points.

On further review, I am starting to seriously reconsider the ultimate scope and aims of the Russian involvement.

Far from a liberation mission as before, I now think their main goal is a holding action. They intend to ensure Assad is not toppled, and will priorities terrorist groups more threatening to Russian, Chinese and Iranian interests, but will not seek to retake all territory lost to ISIS.

I think the Russian air and naval assets deployed, while impressive and substantial, are nowhere near the forces required for a national level offensive.

You are going to need hundreds each of fixed and rotor wing frontline combat aircraft, with appropriate support assets like tankers, AWACS, UAVs etc.

The commitment of foreign ground forces also need to be considerable, we are talking about hundreds to thousands of tanks and armour vehicles and an ideal minimum of a hundred thousand combat troops. Ideally you will want a lot more of everything.

Unless the Russians substantially beef up their presence and Iranian forces start showing up in significant numbers, I don't think they will be able to do a full on liberation effort. And until that happens, I don't think they will even seriously try to retake the country.

The main problem, I suspect, is logistics.

Neither Russia or Iran has a direct land boarder to Syria, and there are no reliable friendly countries they could route supplies and troops through.

Iraq will be vetoed by America, Turkey is a non starter. Even trying to supply via the sea, you are bottlenecked on pretty much all routes in. It will be even worse for China to try and get troops and supplies there.

I think this will be an especially grave concern for the Iranians, who will be concerned about American organised regime change going on back home while a significant part of their best fighting strength is effectively trapped in Syria unable to help.

If Iran deployed a hundred thousand or more of its best troops to Syria, I think that will give the chickenhawks in Washington ideas or at least severely temp them.

For the Russians and the Chinese, the concerns will be more about the practicalities of how to run a large scale military campaign so far from home, with deeply hostile regional powers controlling much of the ways in and out of Syria.

Russia, and probably China as well, could deploy a good sized force to Syria, but cannot support enough forces there to make a nation wide liberation campaign work, so they are not even going to try.

Thus I think the main goals of the Russian mission are to safeguard Assad and kill terrorists who post the greatest threat to Russian and Chinese interests.

The Syrian ground forces will do what they can to best take advantage of the Russia air support and make as much gains on the ground as they can, but it will be slow work, and may well end up being largely ineffective.

The Russians are there to preserve the status quo first and foremost, if they can help the Syrians retake their country, great, if they cannot, its not the end of the world.
 
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