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[Blitzo]

The genesis of the Brahmos threat question was raised in post #1215 against a CSG. So we have :
- E-2D which outside of the USN no one else has it
- Ka-31 which is common across a number of navies but the sensor range is well within the perimeter of a CAP and so unlikely to survive to provide ongoing targeting solution
- Erieye according to Wiki has a detection range of up to 350km in a dense environment but presumably still within the outer rim of CAP from a CSG.

In short, how do you effectively attack a CSG with Brahmos unless you have a reliable targeting solution. This is the same problem the Soviets had during the Cold War when devising tactical solution to attack a CSG.

Sure, but in that case, you're still going to have to deal with CAP anyway because of the need to deliver the munition to at least within 300km of the target. Then it becomes a question about how well you can fight your air war rather than how well you can acquire a targeting solution (which was the original point I was replying to)

The viability of all weapons depend on how well other domains of superiority can be achieved versus a foe, but that doesn't make the weapon in itself any less potent, it just means you have to employ your forces in a way to optimize your advantages.
For instance, F-22 is the world's best air superiority fighter currently in service, but even they are useless if sub launched cruise missiles can destroy their runways and hangars. That doesn't mean they are any less capable as fighters, it just means they have to rely on other supporting elements for protection.
It is up to each side to employ their weapons the best way they see fit against whatever adversary they come up against. If we're pitting IAF and IN against a USN level CSG, then sure, things are gonna be difficult. But if it's against, say, a CSG of their own capability, then things will probably turn out quite differently.

I'm just saying that long range AShMs are definitely a credible threat of differing levels, dependent on the opfor you're facing as well as your own supporting capabilities.

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But if we want to be pedantic, HMS Astute's post did specifically leave out CAP (which obviously isn't very realistic), but still sets the foundation of the scenario to consider.

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PLA is supposedly relying on satellites for some kind of real time tracking/midcourse guidance for AShBMs... it's been discussed at great length over in the carrier strategies thread.

 

[Brumby]

Sure, but in that case, you're still going to have to deal with CAP anyway because of the need to deliver the munition to at least within 300km of the target. Then it becomes a question about how well you can fight your air war rather than how well you can acquire a targeting solution (which was the original point I was replying to)

The viability of all weapons depend on how well other domains of superiority can be achieved versus a foe, but that doesn't make the weapon in itself any less potent, it just means you have to employ your forces in a way to optimize your advantages.

I am simply stating the fact that the potency is highly dependent on the sensors being able to acquire and maintain a targeting solution which is in itself the weak link to any ASM including Brahmos and especially against a CSG because of the layered defences and the limited range of suitable sensors.

It is up to each side to employ their weapons the best way they see fit against whatever adversary they come up against. If we're pitting IAF and IN against a USN level CSG, then sure, things are gonna be difficult. But if it's against, say, a CSG of their own capability, then things will probably turn out quite differently.

I'm just saying that long range AShMs are definitely a credible threat of differing levels, dependent on the opfor you're facing as well as your own supporting capabilities.

Taking on a USN CSG is extremely challenging because there are many counter tactics developed over many years during the Cold War. There is an article I read this week which outlined some of the difficulties from the Soviet perspective when attempting to develop tactical doctrine against the USN carriers during those days. The following is insightful :
“Moreover, knowing the position of the carrier task force is not the same as knowing the position of the carrier itself. There were at least two cases when in the center of the formation there was, instead of the carrier, a large fleet oiler or replenishment vessel with an enhanced radar signature (making it look as large on the Backfires’ radar screens as a carrier) and a radiating tactical air navigation system. The carrier itself, contrary to routine procedures, was steaming completely alone, not even trailing the formation. To know for sure the carrier’s position, it was desirable to observe it visually.”(Tokarev, Pg. 77)

PLA is supposedly relying on satellites for some kind of real time tracking/midcourse guidance for AShBMs... it's been discussed at great length over in the carrier strategies thread.

The Soviets built the RORSAT system for a similar purpose but the ocean is a big place and presumably in a shooting war, the satellites will be the first to get taken out.

 

[Blitzo]

I don't disagree that taking on a USN CSG is definitely difficult.
Taking on another nation's CSG, less so.

But in either case, I think long range AShMs still have a role and are a credible threat. The degree of their threat depends on the other supporting elements you have.
Frankly I think we're saying the same thing just in different ways.


As for satellites, the RORSAT and ASAT discussion has been had before in various forms, and the conclusions were more or less inconclusive.

 

[aksha]

hmm..... how to detect a CSG . The Nirbhay cruise missle(range 1000 -1500 info based on live media reports during the tests,journalists reported live on twitter during its test on twitter about it crossing 1500kms before hitting the target,official declared range >1000kms) was also designed to act like a drone and send information back(could it be used to find CSG's?)
the DRDO even wants them to be recoverable an reused.

the Bramhos is no pushover ,it is said to be one of few or may be even the only one to be able to supersonic dives and to be maneuverable, and it is much more maneuverable than the oniks from which they were developed,they can be launched from submarines,su30mki's(2) ,mig29k's and rafales .it can be launched from air,land, sea,and underwater. the akula(Iribris) which india is said to be buying is suppsed to come with vls(whether bramhos or club not known). the DRDO is trying to get it do a 90 degree terminal attack over the enemy.recently it passed the wind tunnel tests for the su 30mki's.another factor is the bramhos is always evolving.from the oniks to the new bramhos mini(said to be a lighter ,faster missile with the same range).there was a russian video on russian cruise missiles and destroyin carrier strike groups,will post if i find it
[video=youtube;DsE8uc0iW1I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsE8uc0iW1I[/video]

fun factsinspite being small navy the IN operates a wonderfully diverse collection of cruise miissles
1)K15 Hypersonic Cruise Missile (Test fired many times)(Submarine Launched Hypersonic Cruise Missile)
2)Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile
3)3M-54E/3M-14E Klub Anti-Ship/Land Attack Cruise Missile (SS-N-27 Sizzler)
4)Kh-35 (SS-N-25 SwitchBlade)
5)P-20 (SS-N-2D Styx)
6)Sea Eagle missile
7)Harpoon missile
8)Gabriel missile
9)Exocet missile

may be they they take the country's slogan of "unity in our diversity " too seriously





and if anyone is interested the INS kochi sortied out for trials on 13 august 2014

 

[thunderchief]

Scenario of USN carrier groups striking against India doesn't seem very realistic to me, but in any case India would not need to hit and sink a carrier to win in this kind of war. Damaging or destroying few of the escorts in CGS would certainly force it to retire, enough for diplomatic activities to start and resolve conflict favorably to India . Therefore, few of the hit & run attack Argentinian style could do the trick . Any strike on USN target would boost India's morale and unlike Argentina, India could afford to target even less significant vessels.

 

[aksha]

St Petersburg enterprise to supply arresting gear for INS Vikrant

St. Petersburg’s Proletarski Zavod (Proletarian Factory) will supply arresting gears and breaking machines for the under construction INS Vikrant aircraft carrier. The Russian enterprise has already supplied similar equipment for the INS Vikramaditya, Yury Skorikov, the factory’s general director told Tass.
“A contract has been signed with the Indian side. We are making arresting gears for the Vikrant aircraft carrier,” Skorikov said. He added that the enterprise is now considering an agreement on post-guarantee servicing of the arresting gears that are already found in the Vikramaditya since the basic time period of the warranty has already run out.“We’ve already put braking machines on the Vikramaditya and are manufacturing them for the Vikrant aircraft carrier. Presumably the breaking machines for the Vikrant will be supplied in 2015,” Skorikov said.
The St. Petersburg enterprise also produces arresting gears for naval aviation pilot training complexes in Yeysk, Russia as well as in the Indian state of Goa. “Four arresting gears were delivered to Yeysk and the first machine has already been installed,” said Skorikov. “Deliveries were completed in 2013. Right now the equipment is being mounted.”
Proletarski Zavod is one of the oldest machine-building enterprises in St Petersburg. It specialises in marine and power engineering. According to its website, ship mechanisms, systems and complexes, that in certain cases do not have any analogues in home industry, are created at the factory.
The INS Vikrant is the first aircraft carrier built in India. The ship was “launched” in 2013 and construction is expected to be completed by 2016. The first ship of the Vikrant class of aircraft carriers is expected to be commissioned in 2018. Work is currently going on in the Cochin Shipyard in the Indian state of Kerala.The aircraft carrier is 262 metres long and 60 metres wide, and displaces about 40,000 metric tons. The deck will be able to accommodate 30 aircrafts and is expected to host MiG 29K and Tejas aircrafts, as well as Kamov Ka-31 aircrafts. India will keep a squadron of 17 MiG 29s on the INS Vikrant to protect its eastern seaboard. Russia will deliver the second squadron of aircraft meant for the indigenous aircraft carrier by 2015.

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[aksha]

Bangalore, October 31: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the critical Ground Vibration Test (GVT) on a Sukhoi aircraft, which is being integrated with the air version of the BrahMos missile. Confirming details to OneIndia, HAL Chairman R K Tyagi said that the GVT is an important step towards the modification of the Sukhois, which are set to carry the BrahMos missiles in future. "The recent GVT was aimed at assessing the dynamic behavior of the modified Sukhoi platform. The tests were carried out for a total of nine configurations," Tyagi said. The GVT was done at HAL's Nasik Division in Maharashtra. A team of experts from the ground test department of HAL's Aircraft Research and Development Centre (ARDC) in Bangalore conducted the GVT in the presence of quality experts, IAF officials and members from the BrahMos Aerospace team. Tests on nine configurations of the aircraft The tests were carried out for nine configurations, including clean configuration, with bombs (2 tons) at station 1 & 2 (centerline of the aircraft), with BrahMos missile at the newly-developed station 13, R-27 missiles at station 3-6, R-73 missiles at station 7-10 and SAP518 pod (ECM jamming pod) at station 11-12. "The preliminary results show good agreement between natural frequencies of clean aircraft and design values. These are ongoing tests and are complex in nature. Multiple agencies are involved in the project and we are confident of achieving the tasks within the set targets," Tyagi said. The National Aerospace Laboratories too recently conducted extensive wind tunnel experiments (separation tests) to monitor the health of the aircraft, after BrahMos missile is released.

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[A Bar Brother]

....

I've read your assessment on India's air arm in the Pro Discussions thread. Since I cannot reply over there, I though it would be better to answer some of the points you've made over here instead.

45 x Mig-29K Carrier Strike fighters (up to 40 more planned)

The navy is not going to order more Mig-29s. The future orders will be for CATOBAR capable aircraft, with the exception being the N-LCA. So we are looking at a new MRCA tender, or just outright purchases of either Rafale-M or F-35C. The navy sent out a preliminary RFI in 2009 for 36 aircraft with 36 more as options.

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We could be looking at new orders for 40-80 MRCA aircraft pretty soon. The planned 45 additional Mig-29s have either been put on hold or canceled.

Now, coming to the points you have raised.

First and foremost, now and in the future, based on the numbers I have, the Indian Military is extremely deficient in AWACS/AEW aircraft, and in Refueling. I would say for a force their size that they are severely deficient. They should have 16-24 decent AWACS aircraft for their nation, and something more capable for their Navy than the Kh-31s. They should have 24-30 or more large refueling aircraft as well.

It is true that our the forces are deficient in such assets, but multiple programs have been initiated for the same. When it comes to AEW&Cs, there are a total of three programs. One is the Israeli Phalcons, the second is a DRDO-CABS program for an indigenous AEW&C on an Embraer platform and the third is the analogue to the Phalcons and is called AWACS-India. Apart from the 5 Phalcons, the plan is to induct well over 20 of the smaller Embraer AEW&C. And a new program for 6 more Phalcon class AEW&C under AWACS-India. Naturally, the numbers will climb as the program progresses.

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We also mustn't forget that the navy's P-8I are unique, and come with a full 360 degree air surveillance capability (unlike the USN's P-8A), further augmenting the military's surveillance capability. 12 have been ordered and there is a requirement for 12 more P-8Is. So be on the look out for additional orders.

Back in 2006, the navy had studied inducting the E-2C Hawkeye for their carriers. Things didn't work out due to the less capable STOBAR capability of the AEW platform. Apparently, if launched in a STOBAR configuration, the endurance of the aircraft is just one hour. So we are looking at a new FMS deal for the E-2D Hawkeye meant for a new CATOBAR capable carrier, INS Vishal.

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As far as tankers are concerned, it seems to be a problem area. After the 6 IL-78s were inducted, the air force initiated a program for new refuelers, but after the tender process was completed, with the A330 as the victor, the finance ministry scuttled the deal citing high costs. So the tender was restarted with LCC (life cycle costs) being the basis. The A330 deal is currently in the limbo because of rebranding. The company (Cassidian, I believe) that participated in the tender has passed the project on to Airbus, so it is stuck in bureaucratic red tape. The tender is for 6 aircraft with 6 more as options. If signed, the refueler fleet will have a total of 18 aircraft. Hopefully, the new govt is not going to sit on the file. Eventually, the navy will also want to acquire new tankers.

The forces have focused a lot of their energies in acquiring buddy refueling capabilities for all aircraft. However, unlike the AEW&C fleet, the tanker fleet is in the doldrums, and I hope it is fixed as soon as possible.

Second, for a nation their size, with the kind of coastline they have, I would say they are also very deficient in Maritime Patrol and Recon aircraftr, as well as recon aircraft for their Air Force. They should have a force fo 36-48 MPAs, and they should have 48-60 recon aircraft for their Air Force IMHO.

Very true and this is another area of core importance to the navy. As already mentioned, there are 12 P-8Is ordered, and a possible order for 12 more. The navy has also released a new tender for 9 MRMRs with probably as many in options.

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So we are possibly looking at 21 on paper or flying and 21 more orders in the next few years. This is apart from the Tu-142 and IL-38 which are being upgraded to last at least 2 more decades. So we are looking good as far as MPAs are concerned.

Third, the Indian military, for a nation as large as theirs, needs to spend the next ten years making very serious progress towards developing their own indegenous military aircraft industry. Other than the languishing Tejas, a few trainers, and some light helciopters, they basically do not have a military aircraft industry and they desparately need one. Both from a cost and a strategic reliance standpoint.

We have three fighter aircraft programs running in parallel. One is the LCA, the other is the FGFA and the third is the AMCA. Apart from that there are a number of UAV and UCAV programs, like the Rustom family and the AURA UCAV. In the transport segment, there is the IL-214 program as well.

There are two hypersonic development programs, one is DRDO's HSTDV and the other is ISRO's RLV.

Now, the Indian Military is modernizing and they are getting some very decent aircraft and capability. The SU-30MKIs are extremely good aircraft for their air superiority and their attack/strike capabilities, and the Indians will have more of them than any other nation on earth, including Russia.

There is a reliable source who said more Su-30MKIs are to be ordered depending on the financial situation.

The C-17 Globemaster Transports (10 planned)
The C-130J Super Herculese Transports (12 planned)

These numbers are expected to go up soon. The IAF has mentioned they want to increase the C-17 fleet to 25. There is also a new request out for 1 more C-130J as attrition replacement.

45 IL-214s are expected to be ordered.

And...if they can somehow find the funds to add 48 or so F-35As to their Air Force and 24 F-35Bs to their Navy...all the better for them. Those would be very critical future assets, even as they dirve for developing their own military aircraft industry.

There is no chance for the IAF to order the F-35, but there is a huge potential for the navy to do so. With the FGFA program, IAF officials have already mentioned that there is no requirement for the F-35.

 

[aksha]

I've read your assessment on India's air arm in the Pro Discussions thread. Since I cannot reply over there, I though it would be better to answer some of the points you've made over here instead.



The navy is not going to order more Mig-29s. The future orders will be for CATOBAR capable aircraft, with the exception being the N-LCA. So we are looking at a new MRCA tender, or just outright purchases of either Rafale-M or F-35C. The navy sent out a preliminary RFI in 2009 for 36 aircraft with 36 more as options.

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We could be looking at new orders for 40-80 MRCA aircraft pretty soon. The planned 45 additional Mig-29s have either been put on hold or canceled.

CORRECT ON ALL COUNTS EXCEPT HERE.

there won't be another naval mmrca deal for the navy .the iaf's mmrca circus has been going on for more than a decade and they haven't got a single aircraft yet.
besides 45 mig29k's aren't enough for both vikramaditya and vikrant ,reasonsthey will need a minimum of 90 fighters for the vikram and vikrant,both of which is expected to serve atleast till 2040
1)they will start losing mig29k's sooner or later,even the USN does and the french navy does by way of crashes.
2)the NLCA Mk1 is mainly going to based on airbases at shore for airbase protection ,them being single engined are not very suitable for STOBAR.(remember even with steam catapults the USN went for the double engined f18 than the single engined f16,).though they will maintain a 3 - 5 NLCA's on both the STOBARS.
3)the rafale won't be able to take off with the same loadout as the mig29k's on STOBAR ,besides operating 3 different aircraft each of which uses 3 different engines on small carriers is a recipe for disaster interms of the spares each of them will need.
4)the griffin is too similar to the tejas,having similar capablities,though the griffin is better than the tejas at present.
5)the EFT whose naval version which the british call seaphoon wont be revived ,the royal navy is not interested in them and developing a naval version for limited number of aircraft is going to be very costly.
6)f16 ,same problem AS NLCA ,single engined
7)f18 ,too heavy,can take off from STOBAR but limited loadout.
8) the ins vishaal can't be expected before 2035, even the french with a better shipbuilding reputation than india had problems with the charles de la gaulle ,inspite of already having built 2 carriers of similar tonnage,though she s all right now.the ins vishaal design too i think hasen't been completed .so buying rafales for 2035 is pure stupidity ,the IN wants the AMCA for the VISHAAL not rafale .(a CATOBAR version of NLCA has been planned too.)
the rafale will be lets say out of fashion then as will be mig29k,EFT ,griffin,Fs 18 & 16.
so better buy mig29k's which are cheaper

i posted this on russian mil news

may be, during the vikramaditya trials ,mikoyan said that there was 1 mig 35 prototype undergoing trials too.also next the indian navy will order their next batch of 45 fighters. a mig29k mechanic i know( father of my friend) says that the rafale,gipen, eurofighter typhoon(bae had offered the IN a sea version ,a seaphoon) are effectively ruled out. they are very impressed with the mig29k,and it is better to operate a similar type of fighter(hence rafale is out).he also said the next batch of fighters for the IN will be mig35 standards(they will have aesa radars anyway). unless the US offers them f35's(they are very interested in the f35's) before they sign the deal with russia next year,they intend the mig29k to be the last foreign fighter to serve in the IN.(the IN plans to operate 90 mig29k's).


also by the end of this year the IN will receive 6 more mig29k/kub.

the F35 B & C has a very high chance of operating in the IN if the US allows them
on the four 40,000 tonne lhd's (f35 B) and the F35 C apparently can be used on STOBARS too.(it has the most powerful negine in the world)
the biggest reason why they won't have another MRCA competition(until at least the late 2020's) is because of the training and money they spent on the mig29k's ,if they buy any other aircraft the logistics involved will make things much cosltly.
the article on the hindu was published in 2009,my interview(informal though) with the navy guy was this year,also a few months back when admiral dhowan visited kochi ,he said that the navy may buy more mig29s ,unfortunately the national media didnot cover the the breifing or thought it not important but it came in the local news channels.i will post a video or article if i find one ,tommorow

 

[HMS Astute]

Scenario of USN carrier groups striking against India doesn't seem very realistic to me, but in any case India would not need to hit and sink a carrier to win in this kind of war. Damaging or destroying few of the escorts in CGS would certainly force it to retire, enough for diplomatic activities to start and resolve conflict favorably to India . Therefore, few of the hit & run attack Argentinian style could do the trick . Any strike on USN target would boost India's morale and unlike Argentina, India could afford to target even less significant vessels.

Disagree.

US will not easily let India get away with it. There is something called retaliation will be implemented.