Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
- Start date
thunderchief
Senior Member
Looks like there is a big debate in Indian public fueled between French and Russian lobbyist which way should Indian defense cooperation go. IMHO, currently India is not under great threat of conventional war. India has two big rivals - China and Pakistan, but China doesn't want war and Pakistan's preparations are mostly defensive .
Therefore, it would be more prudent for India to develop its own defensive industry then to spend great sums of money on foreign hardware. Tejas may not be best fighter in the world, but it is certainly good enough to replace Mig-21 , and loot cheaper then Rafale or Su-30MKI . Same goes for Arjun, Rudra etc ... Technologies and know-how mastered by mass producing these systems could be priceless in the future .
As i suspected earlier, Bartk 8 is not finished product despite Israeli claims, and that is a real reason it was not deployed on Kolkata-class.
I have the following aircraft listed for the Indian Naval Air Arm, the Indian Air Force, and the Indian Army Aviation respectfully:
INDIAN NAVAL AIR ARM:
Fixed Wing Aircraft:
Combat:
45 x Mig-29K Carrier Strike fighters (up to 40 more planned)
12 x Sea Harrier Carrier STOVL Fighters
05 x P81 Neptune (+3 on order, +4 on future order) MPA
08 x Tu-142M Bear MPA
05 x IL-38 May MPA
Trainers:
08 x BAE HAwk 132 Trainers (8 more planned for Navy)
08 x HAL HJT-16 Trainers
Total: 91 Fixed Wing Aircraft (To be 144 aircraft)
Helicopters:
Combat:
09 x Ka-31 Helix-B AEW helos
27 x Westland Sea King ASW/SAR helos
06 x Sirkosky UH-3H Seak King ASW helos
07 x Ka-25 Hormone ASW helos
13 x Ka-28 Helix-A ASW helos
Utility:
55 x Hal Chetak utility helos
18 x Hal Dhruv utility helos (+16 on order)
Total: 125 helicpopters (To be 141)
Total: 214 Naval Aircraft (To be 285)
INDIAN AIR FORCE:
Fixed Wing:
Combat:
216 x SU-30MKI multirole aircraft (56 more on order)
062 x Mig-29 UPG (all being upgraded to UPG standard)
049 x Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 (all being upgraded the Mk 5 standard)
148 x Jaguar SPECAT MS (service life upgrade planned for early 2020s)
079 x Mig-27ML (to be retired in early 2020s)
254 x Mig-21 M/MF & BIson (to be retired by 2022
008 x HAL Tejas multio role (40 more on order, 246 more planned)
Total: 716 Combat aircraft (To be 827)
Transport:
006 x C-17 Globemaster transport (4 more on order)
017 x Il-76 MD Candid transport
006 x C-130J Super Herculese transport (6 more on order)
062 x Hawker HS 748 transport
105 x AN-32 cline transport
040 x Do-228 Utility transport
004 x 737 VIP tranport
002 x Astra 1125 VIP transport
Total: 252 Transport Aircraft (To be 262)
Early Warning and Recon:
003 x A-50 Phalcon AEW (2 more on order)
003 x EMB-145 AEWC
007 x IV Sra4 Gulfstem 4 recon
002 x Bombadier 5000 recon
Total: 15 Early warning and recon aircraft (To be 17)
Refueling:
007 x Il-78MKI refueling
Total: 7 Refueling aircraft
Training:
078 x Hawk 132 trainers (28 more on order)
081 x Hal HJT-16 trainers (to be retired in 2017)
035 x Pilatuis PC-7 trainers (40 more ordered, 137 on additional orders)
070 x Hal HPT-32 trainers (to be replaced by PC-7)
Total: 264 Trainer Aircraft (To be 372)
Total: 1,254 Fixed Wing Aircraft (To be 1,485)
Helicopters:
Attack:
004 x HAL Rudra ALH-WSI attack helos (12 more on order)
002 x HAL LCH attack helos (63 more on order)
020 x Mil-35 Hind E Attack helos (to be replaced by Apaches)
002 x AH-64D Apache attack helos (20 more on order)
Transport/Utility[/u}:
002 x CH-47 Chinook Transport helos (13 more on order)
187 x Mi-8 Utility helos
019 x Mi-17V5 Utility helos (40 more on order)
003 x Mi-26 Halo Utility Helos
047 x HAL Dhruc Utility helos (65 more on order)
034 x HAL Chetah utility heolos
073 x HAL Chetak utility helos
Total: 403 Helicopters (To be 597)
Total: 1,675 Air Force Aircraft (To be 2,082)
INDIAN ARMY AVIATION:
Helicopters:
Attack:
020 x HAL Rhudra ACH-WSIattack helos (40 more on order)
002 x AH-64E attack helicopters (37 more on order)
002 x HAL LCH Attack helos (112 more on order)
012 x HAL LAncer attack helos
Total: 36 Attack Helicopters (To be 223)
Utility{/u]:
064 x HAL Druv Utility helos (96 more on order)
060 x HAL Chetak AS 316B utility helos (to be replaced by 2020)
022 x HAL Cheetah Utility heols (to be relaced by HAL CheetahI)
026 x HAL CheetahI Utility helos
Total: 192 utility Helicopters (To be 208)
Total: 228 Army Aviation helicopters (To be 431)
TOTAL INDIAN MILITARY AIRCRAFT:
Current: 2,099 aircraft
Planned: 2,798 aircraft
Now, for a couple of observations and comments.
First and foremost, now and in the future, based on the numbers I have, the Indian Military is extremely deficient in AWACS/AEW aircraft, and in Refueling. I would say for a force their size that they are severely deficient. They should have 16-24 decent AWACS aircraft for their nation, and something more capable for their Navy than the Kh-31s. They should have 24-30 or more large refueling aircraft as well.
Second, for a nation their size, with the kind of coastline they have, I would say they are also very deficient in Maritime Patrol and Recon aircraftr, as well as recon aircraft for their Air Force. They should have a force fo 36-48 MPAs, and they should have 48-60 recon aircraft for their Air Force IMHO.
Third, the Indian military, for a nation as large as theirs, needs to spend the next ten years making very serious progress towards developing their own indegenous military aircraft industry. Other than the languishing Tejas, a few trainers, and some light helciopters, they basically do not have a military aircraft industry and they desparately need one. Both from a cost and a strategic reliance standpoint.
Now, the Indian Military is modernizing and they are getting some very decent aircraft and capability. The SU-30MKIs are extremely good aircraft for their air superiority and their attack/strike capabilities, and the Indians will have more of them than any other nation on earth, including Russia.
The Mig-29K is an excellent choice for their naval air arm, and they will also have more of them than any other nation...including Russia.
They are buying more and more Western technology and particularly US technology. This is increaing their overall capability, and hopefully they will be able to get some decent infusion of technology into their own future programs.
From the US they are getting all of the following types of aircraft:
The P-8I Neptunes Maritime Patrol/ASW Aircraft (12 planned)
The C-17 Globemaster Transports (10 planned)
The C-130J Super Herculese Transports (12 planned)
The AH-64D Apache Attack Helicopters (61 planned)
The Ch-47 Chinook Transport Helicopters (15 planned)
Now, those are relatively modest numbers for a military their size...but it is a good start. Having over 60 AH-64Ds will be a critical capability for them in the future.
And...if they can somehow find the funds to add 48 or so F-35As to their Air Force and 24 F-35Bs to their Navy...all the better for them. Those would be very critical future assets, even as they dirve for developing their own military aircraft industry.
INDIAN NAVAL AIR ARM:
Fixed Wing Aircraft:
Combat:
45 x Mig-29K Carrier Strike fighters (up to 40 more planned)
12 x Sea Harrier Carrier STOVL Fighters
05 x P81 Neptune (+3 on order, +4 on future order) MPA
08 x Tu-142M Bear MPA
05 x IL-38 May MPA
Trainers:
08 x BAE HAwk 132 Trainers (8 more planned for Navy)
08 x HAL HJT-16 Trainers
Total: 91 Fixed Wing Aircraft (To be 144 aircraft)
Helicopters:
Combat:
09 x Ka-31 Helix-B AEW helos
27 x Westland Sea King ASW/SAR helos
06 x Sirkosky UH-3H Seak King ASW helos
07 x Ka-25 Hormone ASW helos
13 x Ka-28 Helix-A ASW helos
Utility:
55 x Hal Chetak utility helos
18 x Hal Dhruv utility helos (+16 on order)
Total: 125 helicpopters (To be 141)
Total: 214 Naval Aircraft (To be 285)
INDIAN AIR FORCE:
Fixed Wing:
Combat:
216 x SU-30MKI multirole aircraft (56 more on order)
062 x Mig-29 UPG (all being upgraded to UPG standard)
049 x Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 (all being upgraded the Mk 5 standard)
148 x Jaguar SPECAT MS (service life upgrade planned for early 2020s)
079 x Mig-27ML (to be retired in early 2020s)
254 x Mig-21 M/MF & BIson (to be retired by 2022
008 x HAL Tejas multio role (40 more on order, 246 more planned)
Total: 716 Combat aircraft (To be 827)
Transport:
006 x C-17 Globemaster transport (4 more on order)
017 x Il-76 MD Candid transport
006 x C-130J Super Herculese transport (6 more on order)
062 x Hawker HS 748 transport
105 x AN-32 cline transport
040 x Do-228 Utility transport
004 x 737 VIP tranport
002 x Astra 1125 VIP transport
Total: 252 Transport Aircraft (To be 262)
Early Warning and Recon:
003 x A-50 Phalcon AEW (2 more on order)
003 x EMB-145 AEWC
007 x IV Sra4 Gulfstem 4 recon
002 x Bombadier 5000 recon
Total: 15 Early warning and recon aircraft (To be 17)
Refueling:
007 x Il-78MKI refueling
Total: 7 Refueling aircraft
Training:
078 x Hawk 132 trainers (28 more on order)
081 x Hal HJT-16 trainers (to be retired in 2017)
035 x Pilatuis PC-7 trainers (40 more ordered, 137 on additional orders)
070 x Hal HPT-32 trainers (to be replaced by PC-7)
Total: 264 Trainer Aircraft (To be 372)
Total: 1,254 Fixed Wing Aircraft (To be 1,485)
Helicopters:
Attack:
004 x HAL Rudra ALH-WSI attack helos (12 more on order)
002 x HAL LCH attack helos (63 more on order)
020 x Mil-35 Hind E Attack helos (to be replaced by Apaches)
002 x AH-64D Apache attack helos (20 more on order)
Transport/Utility[/u}:
002 x CH-47 Chinook Transport helos (13 more on order)
187 x Mi-8 Utility helos
019 x Mi-17V5 Utility helos (40 more on order)
003 x Mi-26 Halo Utility Helos
047 x HAL Dhruc Utility helos (65 more on order)
034 x HAL Chetah utility heolos
073 x HAL Chetak utility helos
Total: 403 Helicopters (To be 597)
Total: 1,675 Air Force Aircraft (To be 2,082)
INDIAN ARMY AVIATION:
Helicopters:
Attack:
020 x HAL Rhudra ACH-WSIattack helos (40 more on order)
002 x AH-64E attack helicopters (37 more on order)
002 x HAL LCH Attack helos (112 more on order)
012 x HAL LAncer attack helos
Total: 36 Attack Helicopters (To be 223)
Utility{/u]:
064 x HAL Druv Utility helos (96 more on order)
060 x HAL Chetak AS 316B utility helos (to be replaced by 2020)
022 x HAL Cheetah Utility heols (to be relaced by HAL CheetahI)
026 x HAL CheetahI Utility helos
Total: 192 utility Helicopters (To be 208)
Total: 228 Army Aviation helicopters (To be 431)
TOTAL INDIAN MILITARY AIRCRAFT:
Current: 2,099 aircraft
Planned: 2,798 aircraft
Now, for a couple of observations and comments.
First and foremost, now and in the future, based on the numbers I have, the Indian Military is extremely deficient in AWACS/AEW aircraft, and in Refueling. I would say for a force their size that they are severely deficient. They should have 16-24 decent AWACS aircraft for their nation, and something more capable for their Navy than the Kh-31s. They should have 24-30 or more large refueling aircraft as well.
Second, for a nation their size, with the kind of coastline they have, I would say they are also very deficient in Maritime Patrol and Recon aircraftr, as well as recon aircraft for their Air Force. They should have a force fo 36-48 MPAs, and they should have 48-60 recon aircraft for their Air Force IMHO.
Third, the Indian military, for a nation as large as theirs, needs to spend the next ten years making very serious progress towards developing their own indegenous military aircraft industry. Other than the languishing Tejas, a few trainers, and some light helciopters, they basically do not have a military aircraft industry and they desparately need one. Both from a cost and a strategic reliance standpoint.
Now, the Indian Military is modernizing and they are getting some very decent aircraft and capability. The SU-30MKIs are extremely good aircraft for their air superiority and their attack/strike capabilities, and the Indians will have more of them than any other nation on earth, including Russia.
The Mig-29K is an excellent choice for their naval air arm, and they will also have more of them than any other nation...including Russia.
They are buying more and more Western technology and particularly US technology. This is increaing their overall capability, and hopefully they will be able to get some decent infusion of technology into their own future programs.
From the US they are getting all of the following types of aircraft:
The P-8I Neptunes Maritime Patrol/ASW Aircraft (12 planned)
The C-17 Globemaster Transports (10 planned)
The C-130J Super Herculese Transports (12 planned)
The AH-64D Apache Attack Helicopters (61 planned)
The Ch-47 Chinook Transport Helicopters (15 planned)
Now, those are relatively modest numbers for a military their size...but it is a good start. Having over 60 AH-64Ds will be a critical capability for them in the future.
And...if they can somehow find the funds to add 48 or so F-35As to their Air Force and 24 F-35Bs to their Navy...all the better for them. Those would be very critical future assets, even as they dirve for developing their own military aircraft industry.
Last edited:
HMS Astute
Junior Member
Fantastic list. Seems very promising, and does anyone know how many operational Brahmos India has?
Some folks in Indian forum said that there is nothing to defend Brahmos, and it is the best"est" and fastest missiles on earth etc.
I wonder what kind of damage it would do and how effective it would be if it was launched at a moving CSG which is well defended by multiple layers of protection systems, frigates, destroyers (Arleigh Burke, Type 45), subs (Virginia, Astute) and other support ships etc.
Some folks in Indian forum said that there is nothing to defend Brahmos, and it is the best"est" and fastest missiles on earth etc.
I wonder what kind of damage it would do and how effective it would be if it was launched at a moving CSG which is well defended by multiple layers of protection systems, frigates, destroyers (Arleigh Burke, Type 45), subs (Virginia, Astute) and other support ships etc.
I believe that all of the following have systems sufficently advanced to defend against the Brahmos.
- Ticonderoga Class AEGS CGs
- Burke Class AEGIS DDGs (Including all of the foreign varities like Se Jong, Atago, Hobart, Bazan, etc.)
- Type 45 daring Class DDGs
- Horizon Class DDGs (Both Italian and French varities)
- Sachsen FFGs from Germany
- DeZeven FFGs from the Netherlands
- Nansen FFgs from Norway
- FREMM frigates =from France and Italy.
The Chinese Type 052C and 52D defenses may be advnaced enough...we just do not know enough about the sensors and weapons and their testing. I'd be surprised oif the chinese systems did not have a passable chance at defending against them too.
Now, despite this, there are no garauntees. They are very fast and very dangerous missiles, and a launch of four or more of them would be very difficult to defend against by a single of those vessels.
Luckily, in US service, they are going to be traveling in threes and fours when escorting a CSG.
Yes they are very, very dangerous missiles. But, no, to the thought that nothing can defend against them.
HMS Astute
Junior Member
Doombreed
Junior Member
The best defense would be the removal of the launch platforms before the Brahmos are launched. No doubt they will be first strike targets.
Would be interesting to find out how well defended the Brahmos launch platforms are against potential first strikes.
Air launched AShMs are probably more dangerous than shore based launch platforms.
And of course, finding, IDing and striking land based TELs aren't exactly easy either.
---
Anyway, the problem with supersonic AShMs is their cruise altitude. Usually their cruise altitudes are far higher than that of a subsonic AShM, meaning earlier horizon detection for an air defence DDG, so it will allow them to engage the missile at longer ranges (assuming no supporting AEW). It will basically be the equivalent of engaging a relatively low flying supersonic aircraft, which has been something all naval SAMs have been designed to do for decades.
Of course, it is once the AShM reaches terminal phase and becomes a sea skimmer that you are in trouble, but even then, most recent SAMs are designed with such threats in mind. Supersonic AShMs are obviuosly a respectable threat, but I think they've been a little exaggerated.
Last edited:
Doombreed
Junior Member
Indeed. I think WWII taught us that there's no such a thing as a wunderwaffe. In the long run the only thing that matters is industrial output. However, in short sharp localised conflicts where each side is trying to gain maximum advantage before quickly de-escalating, it does have its uses.
Last edited: