The article says in effect:
It's easy for Washington bureaucrats to say that France should not deliver these ships but France can't afford to pay the penalties specified in the contract for the case of non-performance.
2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos
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It's easy for Washington bureaucrats to say that France should not deliver these ships but France can't afford to pay the penalties specified in the contract for the case of non-performance.
I just read on the site of my favorite radio station that Gazprom will end the supply of gas to Ukraine on June 3 unless Kiev pays the $3.5b due no later than June 2. It can pay because it just received $3.4b from IMF. 
Those two Eastern provinces will hope that they are on the other side of the border by then.
Those two Eastern provinces will hope that they are on the other side of the border by then.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I thought Russian prime minister Medvedev's ultimatum was that they would demand prepayment's from Kiev for delivery of natural gas.
Mr T
Senior Member
I can't say as I've liked many governments, whether UK or otherwise. That doesn't mean I've been in favour of the break-up of those respective countries. So my point stands, I don't see how this guy can make a broad-sweeping statement that eastern Ukraine wants independence based on a dodgy question, of an illegal, badly organised propaganda exercise masquerading as a referendum - especially when the results have not been published.
How exactly do the rebel leaders already know the results? Perhaps they decided the outcome before the polling stations opened?
Hmm, and how exactly would Russia make France pay?
delft said:
Russia can have the money when it compensates Ukraine for the loss of Crimea. I have a feeling Ukraine would claim Crimea is worth way more.
Oh, FYI the was conducted in April, although it was published last week.
I think there is little doubt that support for autonomy in both Donetsk and Lughansk is overwhelming and that so many have been prepared to come out to vote in the teeth of National and International opposition, not to mention a trigger happy "anti terrorist" operation is all the evidence you need to see.
It is also obvious that there is no Pro-Kiev constituency in either of these new republics worthy of the name. If there was it would have been far more vociferous, far more active and its leading proponents and near fixture of the news reports of every major pro Kiev, Western channel, ceaselessly telling us how unrepresentative of the population the Pro Federalists are, with their supporters constantly challenging the little green men in the streets.
In addition it would not be credible to claim that this population exists but is cowed by the Pro Federalist Gunmen as the greatest fire power in the country is still retained by the Kiev Government and substantial military forces are deployed to the republics. It would be easy and simple basic good propaganda for the Ukrainian army to deploy to Pro Kiev districts of the major cities and towns and be filmed by cheering Blue and Yellow Flag waving crowds and being given bread and salt by relieved communities, providing the military with secure urban bases from which to expand and close off the "terrorists".
But none of the above has happened, there have been no major counter demonstrations, no signs of any major pro Kiev constituency or civil leadership and the army or national guard have seldom dared to enter urban areas. On the few occasions they have, they have been confronted by angry civilians and forced either to defect/surrender military equipment or be drawn into major fire fights killing civilians.
On this wealth of evidence it can only be concluded that there is no Pro Kiev constituency and the referendum; however imperfect in its technical implementation, is a perfect presentation of the real public mood and preference of the citizenry.
Two former regions have made the move to Independence. The question is now which others will follow their example.
It is also obvious that there is no Pro-Kiev constituency in either of these new republics worthy of the name. If there was it would have been far more vociferous, far more active and its leading proponents and near fixture of the news reports of every major pro Kiev, Western channel, ceaselessly telling us how unrepresentative of the population the Pro Federalists are, with their supporters constantly challenging the little green men in the streets.
In addition it would not be credible to claim that this population exists but is cowed by the Pro Federalist Gunmen as the greatest fire power in the country is still retained by the Kiev Government and substantial military forces are deployed to the republics. It would be easy and simple basic good propaganda for the Ukrainian army to deploy to Pro Kiev districts of the major cities and towns and be filmed by cheering Blue and Yellow Flag waving crowds and being given bread and salt by relieved communities, providing the military with secure urban bases from which to expand and close off the "terrorists".
But none of the above has happened, there have been no major counter demonstrations, no signs of any major pro Kiev constituency or civil leadership and the army or national guard have seldom dared to enter urban areas. On the few occasions they have, they have been confronted by angry civilians and forced either to defect/surrender military equipment or be drawn into major fire fights killing civilians.
On this wealth of evidence it can only be concluded that there is no Pro Kiev constituency and the referendum; however imperfect in its technical implementation, is a perfect presentation of the real public mood and preference of the citizenry.
Two former regions have made the move to Independence. The question is now which others will follow their example.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Putin is backing the peoples republics vote now as it helps push it's plans for a Confederated Ukraine. that is a loose grouping of nations who are single Country in name only. The vote question reminds me of the Irranian Rvolution where they legitimized the Allitola's with a vote with a similar option. there was "Islamic republic yes or no?"
No alternitives. no other options.
No alternitives. no other options.
This Dutch journalist has been reporting from the area for weeks. He is reporting speaking with people some of which are in favor of the Kiev regime but most consider that regime to be illegal.
I have been member/chairman of voting stations in the Netherlands and know how long it takes to count votes. In this case it is just a division of pro, anti and invalid, which is must faster than having to count the votes for lists for twenty or so political parties.
I just heard on the radio news that the German foreign minister has said that economic sanctions against Russia would be more damaging to the EU countries than Russia. Holande, responsible for an economically weaker country, will know that even better than the Germans.
Mr T
Senior Member
Again, complaints about the legitimacy of the government do not automatically equate to a desire for independence.
The parts of Eastern Ukraine controlled by the rebels are not as modern as the Netherlands, so I don't think you can apply those standards - unless turnout was very low.
1. I'm not surprised, given the German foreign minister has the backbone of a jellyfish. If he had his way, all the world would do about Ukraine is talk, talk, talk and when that didn't do anything, talk some more. He's also a member of the SDP (former SDP chancellor Shroeder is one of Putin's best mates).
2. The cost of sanctions are not the same as contractually-imposed fines.
@ Legitimacy:
True, the current extremist regime might be replaced by a compromise interim government that will reorganize the Ukraine as a federation like Switzerland and will organize free and fair elections. Under such circumstances the Eastern provinces will remain within the Ukraine. Will the Western countries cooperate? I don't think the US is interested and the European countries are confused.
@ Counting votes:
I have experience with electronic voting machines, which have been declared unsafe and the use of which has been ended, but I was referring to the use of paper ballots as has been used in The Netherlands since 1796 and that will be used next on Mai 22. I don't see that any province of Ukraine is less modern than The Netherlands in 1919 when the general franchise was introduced.
@Steinmeier
However low your opinion of Frank-Walter Steinmeier he was also talking in name of the Bundeskanzlerin, the only states(wo)man in the EU.
@Fines:
Violating contractual obligations will result in serious sanctions against the guilty party and do great damage the reputation of the offender.
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No real surprises this morning.
Moscow has taken the position that diplomacy should be given a final chance before any final decision to changes in status and sovereignty by the two break away republics. The presence of the German Foreign Minister in Kiev suggests that Europe is now taking the matter seriously.
In the meantime, Russia can extend security to the Donbass, probably through a No Fly Zone and Air Enforced Total Exclusion Zone. In the final option, Russia now has the offer to join the Federation in its pocket.
Moscow has taken the position that diplomacy should be given a final chance before any final decision to changes in status and sovereignty by the two break away republics. The presence of the German Foreign Minister in Kiev suggests that Europe is now taking the matter seriously.
In the meantime, Russia can extend security to the Donbass, probably through a No Fly Zone and Air Enforced Total Exclusion Zone. In the final option, Russia now has the offer to join the Federation in its pocket.
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