East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[vincent]

Just a comment on the offer of talks from Abe. China need to be sure the dude will not attend the meeting, talk about the weather, and then announce to the press that the talk was a waste of time because the Chinese made unreasonable demands.

 

[MwRYum]

Just a comment on the offer of talks from Abe. China need to be sure the dude will not attend the meeting, talk about the weather, and then announce to the press that the talk was a waste of time because the Chinese made unreasonable demands.

That's exactly why China these days just don't do any talk with the Japanese, as they know it's just a waste of time. Like, you'd know the Japanese finally serious for talks if their parliament pass some bills or motions that lead into things to ease tensions.

But we all know that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[i.e.]

PRC can easily make it into a dispute status by filing a complaint to ICJ so why not do it?

because Bi-Lateral negotiation is how china prefers to settle the border disputes. and this ambiguity is one of the basis of Sino-Japanese diplomatic relations.

It has successfully settled, through bi-lateral negotiations, land borders of all of its neighbors (Russia, Kazakhstan, Vietnam .etc) with exception of india.

multi-lateral settlements usually leads to things like treaty of Versailles which has a good track record of massive mess clean up by a world war later.

 

[SamuraiBlue]

A lot of things which are not in Japan's favour are not reported.

The Cairo Declaration is one example. I recalled a particular Japanese diplomatic officer did not know about the CD until he was working in the Japanese FM office. This officer is by the name of 天木直人, a former diplomatic officer to Lebanon.

His statement is broadcasted here, @ 09:34

[video=youtube;ll_10VPEY2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll_10VPEY2w[/video]

If it is true then, the Japanese govt is guilty of hiding the truth from its own people. The Japanese ppl mostly did not know the CD as well from the street interview shown.

Mainly because the Cairo declaration has no legal status as same as the Potsdam declaration. Declarations are only unilateral and always followed by signing of a bilateral treaty in which case the San Francisco peace treaty is the only recognized legal document.

 

[SamuraiBlue]

because Bi-Lateral negotiation is how china prefers to settle the border disputes. and this ambiguity is one of the basis of Sino-Japanese diplomatic relations.

It has successfully settled, through bi-lateral negotiations, land borders of all of its neighbors (Russia, Kazakhstan, Vietnam .etc) with exception of india.

multi-lateral settlements usually leads to things like treaty of Versailles which has a good track record of massive mess clean up by a world war later.

Bi-lateral settlements can only occur when both sides agree of a dispute in which this case Japan does not. The main way for PRC to make Japan recognize that there is a dispute is through ICJ or war. Japan's doors are always open for a peaceful solution but I have doubts of PRC's.

 

[MwRYum]

Bi-lateral settlements can only occur when both sides agree of a dispute in which this case Japan does not. The main way for PRC to make Japan recognize that there is a dispute is through ICJ or war. Japan's doors are always open for a peaceful solution but I have doubts of PRC's.

Certainly there's a door open but that's more like one only big enough to crawl through. The Japanese ain't interest in any talks other than total submission from the Chinese.

So in effect there's nothing to talk about, as there's absolutely zero common ground to begin with.

 

[SamuraiBlue]

Certainly there's a door open but that's more like one only big enough to crawl through. The Japanese ain't interest in any talks other than total submission from the Chinese.

So in effect there's nothing to talk about, as there's absolutely zero common ground to begin with.

Crawl through? Submission??

ICJ is an international court with no partiality towards another nation. It as fair as things can get and yet PRC is not willing to take that step.

 

[shen]

Bi-lateral settlements can only occur when both sides agree of a dispute in which this case Japan does not. The main way for PRC to make Japan recognize that there is a dispute is through ICJ or war. Japan's doors are always open for a peaceful solution but I have doubts of PRC's.

The fact that a territorial dispute exists between China and Japan is plain for the entire world to see. Only the Abe regime is blind to this fact apparently. That's fine, there is no need to go to war. I'm sure most Japanese people are more reasonable than Mr. Abe. In the latest poll, a majority of Japanese people already disapproves of Abe. Abe can't use the China threat card forever to distract the Japanese people from his poor handling of Fukushima cleanup, from his print more money economic policy that's eroding the people's saving, from his attempt to drag Japan into more international conflicts. I trust that given time, the Japanese people will kick him out of office and elect a more reasonable government with whom China can do business with.

 

[airsuperiority]

The thing is, Jeff.

Abe always said he wants to talk, meet with Xi, FM to FM etc etc.

but the issue is Chinese don't see as "sincere",

Chinese (IMHO, rightly) assess that these talks are just domestic political cover for him , to make his policies look like they are not out of ordinary. His government up and down has refused for a long time to budge on this issue, he has staked enough political capital on this for him to back down. He has offered nothing, no nudge or node towards the direction of "Ambiguity on Sovereignty" that predates the current crisis.

he could very well get his meeting, and in it they could talk about nothing but the weather and still come out look like he is a winner.

for a long time the broad spectrum of opinions in Japan, including the realists in the LDP as well as other political figures in Japan has at least advocated a stable, negotiated relationship with China. and its actual initiatives has for long time been steered by "China Experts" in its MFA and other academic and bureaucratic elites. Now the China policy is a pure politically driven issue, maneuvered by hack nationalist instead of professionals, with the China Expert diplomatic corp reduced to a mere mail delivery corp. delivering protests and official letters.

( I think that ) China has enough back channels with Japanese power structure that a mis-communication on epic proportion would not happen. But give Abe a free political cover? no.


===

(little bit OT)
you should really read what Abe has in mind on changing the Japanese Constitution, this is ultimately what he is going after. not only the section on right of collective defense, but on the whole other spectrum of issues...

>>> You are right I.E., it is off topic and not related to the ADIZ. It is also inflamatory and provocative to this discussion. We already closed the thread once because of this. Let's not go back there again. <<<

If anything I had learned from my class, politicians always love to talk, or dialogue. That's what they do first most of all. The reason is if by talking they are coming to you to talk, there's something they want from you. And if they're able to get it from you through peaceful means(which is to talk and seek common ground), this means it's an easier, quicker method that both sides can get to what they want without using more effort, so why not? Politicians aren't soldiers; they want to get things done to stay popular into the next election. (And consider that no one will like to take the longer path to do something if they can get to the same result in a shorter, easier note) You can say they are paying lip-service, but I believe that in certain political situations, such as those in international relations, when they want to discuss things, I think they do mean it for real. Why? If they are talking, that means they have to recognize you as either their roadblock or partner, and is trying to improve the situation. That said, you have something they want, which is why they talk to you. This is especially if in something as serious as IR, where every card and move is intentional.

In addition, it's no mistake that there are miscommunication and lacking grounds of common trust and understanding from both sides, so it's always very important for both sides to dialogue and to work things out. That's really the first step out of this stalemate. In addition, consider that this is Abe's call after the ADIZ is established, I guess we can say safely that Beijing got what they wanted.

To be honest though, I am starting to believe "The Island" is honestly nothing more than a rock in the middle of the sea that neither side truly gives a sh!t about. Beijing pulls off the motherland claim, while Tokyo calls the legal administration claim..but honestly what they want is really to wrestle the influence of that area of water into their sphere of control.

 

[airsuperiority]

The fact that a territorial dispute exists between China and Japan is plain for the entire world to see. Only the Abe regime is blind to this fact apparently. That's fine, there is no need to go to war. I'm sure most Japanese people are more reasonable than Mr. Abe. In the latest poll, a majority of Japanese people already disapproves of Abe. Abe can't use the China threat card forever to distract the Japanese people from his poor handling of Fukushima cleanup, from his print more money economic policy that's eroding the people's saving, from his attempt to drag Japan into more international conflicts. I trust that given time, the Japanese people will kick him out of office and elect a more reasonable government with whom China can do business with.

I hope you're right, and only hope to see both sides to work together to move forward. There's nothing that can't be solved.

In this sense, I hope to see both sides of the government to stop antagonizing each other, while something be done to dissolve the anti-Japanese sentiments amongst the Chinese public.

You guys can say that the anti-Japanese sentiment stems from what the Japanese government did, but to be honest, even if that's so, we are all forgetting that a lot of people don't solely zero in on only the source of their grudges, and also not as rational, so they will naturally inflict the hate towards the entire ethnic group, which in this sense will be racism. This means while the Japanese government is to blame, they will also blame the Japanese people for some reason. In addition, there's no guarantee that the sentiment disappears as soon as the Japanese government makes the right actions, so even if Japan does all the right things, a lot of people will continue to hold onto the outdated stuffs. (this is why reconciliation is the only way forward.)