East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[i.e.]

Port_08, only mods are allowed to use red font.


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Anyway, I hate to brag -- but I called it. The entire point of this ADIZ covering the islands was to bring Japan to the negotiating table.

Come on,

The Chinese Aim, on the first day, was for japan to go back to the table and admit that there is a dispute.

and thus preserving the status quo and one of the cornerstones of China-Japan Relations, which is the ambiguity on the territorial disputes.

This is spelled out in numerous Chinese pronouncements all you have to do is read... sadly all the brainless media keep spouting chinese expansionism, the ferocity and intensity makes Dr Goebbels look likes like Mike Wallace on 60 minutes.

 

[i.e.]

The Conservative Right Wingers in US/Japane/China should just get together in a far away desert somewhere and have a big giant tailgate party. may be somebody will start an argument and start a fight. who knows. may be they really like each other. After all they are just feeding on each other and drag their own country into inevitable war and hell.

 

[port_08]

US is not the peace maker in this case.

if it were really a peacemaker, first it would gone back and public and say that it made a mistake in transferring the administration of rocks back to Japan. Second. would not encourage japan by saying US-Japan Alliance covers a territory Japan has clearly has a dispute on, while at same time saying that it is neutral in this dispute. If you lend your buddy the a gun and promise to come to his aid if he is in trouble, while same time saying you are not in his argument with his neighbor, is, by all strech of common sense, a bald face lie. And it should called so, and subsequently lose all of its moral high ground in this case.

I believe past administration has it's own motivation and calculation at that time, with different political circumstances and world conditions. Those days are different. US also need to "appease" their buddies Japan because there are other consideration at stake here. From my point of view, these matter like the dispute of Diayu\Senkaku is best sorted out between Japan and China and US remain "neutral". What been done in the past cannot be unchanged, it's not like back to the future here. Of course Japan is US ally and under certain obligation to respond when needed. What is so difficult with Japan just to sit down and talk with China? Also nationalist and right wing leaning Abe is taking Japan into darker turn and unpredictable future. There is potential Japan can be very dangerous and loose cannon in international relation with the current administration. Look at current Japan with their secret bill, increasing budget, printing more money to inflate their stock market, covering up the Fukushima incident, anti Korean\Chinese rally with unrestricted hate speech, even beloved studio Ghibli cartoon also romanticize Japan glory days of imperialism....Japan is inching into a very dark and dangerous nation.

 

[RahultheWaffle]

US is not the peace maker in this case.

if it were really a peacemaker, first it would gone back and public and say that it made a mistake in transferring the administration of rocks back to Japan. Second. would not encourage japan by saying US-Japan Alliance covers a territory Japan has clearly has a dispute on, while at same time saying that it is neutral in this dispute. If you lend your buddy the a gun and promise to come to his aid if he is in trouble, while same time saying you are not in his argument with his neighbor, is, by all stretch of common sense, a bald face lie. And it should called so, and subsequently lose all of its moral high ground in this case.

Apeace maker does not mean to intimate one side while give the other side a blank check grantee. a good peacemaker would absolve itself of all interest in the dispute (in which clearly US in this case is not the case because preserving a strong japan vs a weak china is clearly in US interest, hence all the bullshchit about Preserving the Status Quo, which a code word for the current absolute Supreme dominance of Western Pacfic air and sea space by the US-Japan Military Alliance ), a TRUE peace maker would go back to the merit of the issue, and judge and act base on the merit and merit alone not politics. Clearly US is not in the condition to do so. Simply the echos of NSC-68 and Dean G. Acheson's famous speech at the National Press Club on 12 January 1950, which was seen as putting Taiwan and South Korea outside of US defensive parameter, would prohibited US from even a slightest waiver in its position less it is seen as analogous to the historic "Appeasement"... So sadly, Chinese aspirations would suffer instead, and merely a delaying of inevitable would ensure. simply put it, US-Japan is writing checks its grandkids would not be able to cash...

The Core of the problem is that, it is trying to preserve its own disproportionate interest vis-a-via a power in Asia by preserving its alliance with a country governed by the most notorious nationalistic government since 1945. by doing so I found it very hard to convince history that It is doing the right thing. It has let go of all but thinnest veils of universal values covering a grotesque body of naked national interest and may be even racial hatred.

P.S.
I would find it surprising that all the media lynching of china on this issue lately is not with out an active spin by the US government or interest groups in and around it.

Peacemaker or not, the US is acting in the optimal way to preserve its own interests by trying to encourage a significant but "manageable" level of tension in the East China Sea.

Going back to the ADIZ, so far I don't think China's quite lost anything that it couldn't avoid losing with the announcement of the ADIZ. It's obviously annoyed South Korea because it covers Ieodo/Suyan, but IMO had it covered Diaoyu/Senkaku but not Ieodo/Suyan, that would have implicitly given up their claim on Ieodo/Suyan.

 

[Engineer]

Around the isles does not mean it is within territorial airspace. Try not to mix one with the other.

Yeah, but PLAAF fighters had not once entered it so your argument is empty at the moment. Japan does not simply "monitor" movements, we actually try to enforce it by scrambling planes and escort it out of the area.

China has crossed Japan's imaginary territorial boundary multiple times, both with ships and aircraft. Whether there have been PLAAF fighters crossing that boundary is irrelevant, as it doesn't alter the reality that the boundary has been crossed and Japan could do nothing about it.

Within Japanese territorial airspace in which Japan does not accept it to be disputed, Japan will shoot if PLAAF fighters does not comply. This is an act of self defense and is within our sovereign rights. This has not changed whether PRC declares an ADIZ or not.
Declaring an ADIZ does not change that situation.

China does not recognize the sky above Diaoyudao as Japan's territorial airspace, regardless of whether Japan accepts there is a dispute or not. If Japan aircraft were to shoot at PLAAF aircraft, that would be an act of war and PLAAF aircraft will shoot back. Chinese government has made that very clear already. As a result, Japan wasn't able to carry out its threat the last few times China sent in aircraft belonging to CMS.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

And yet port some of the same could be said about china, with Xi spouting Maoist rhetoric, and the growing military. ECT... ECT... Really it gets us nowhere. The argument to try and warn of the evil of Japan is subjective, and in this case off topic.

 

[Blitzo]

The Conservative Right Wingers in US/Japane/China should just get together in a far away desert somewhere and have a big giant tailgate party. may be somebody will start an argument and start a fight. who knows. may be they really like each other. After all they are just feeding on each other and drag their own country into inevitable war and hell.

OT, but who would you consider as particularly right wing and conservative in China?

 

[i.e.]

Wow hypocrisy much?



In any case, can the ICAO even effect a country's announcement of an ADIZ at all?

Because I don't think any ADIZ in the world has any legal basis. It is merely some word to describe a nation's air force patrolling and intercepting potentially hostile aircraft at great distances.
That is to say, we can be sure the ICAO will side with Japan on this issue, and even if they somehow manage to get China to "dismantle" the ADIZ, there is nothing to stop China from simply continuing as if there was an ADIZ in place -- i.e.: IDing and intercepting aircraft more vigorously etc.

Japan is so stupid in this case.

ICAO is not the body to do something about the ADIZ.

here is Why.
1) ICAO is all about civil aviation safety. The NOTAM issued by Authorities in China is not out of ordinary. file a flight plan and identify yourself when challenged, INCREASE SAFETY . It is almost the first thing they teach you to do while getting the PPL.

For example china would very much argue that with much of the military air activity by US-Japan in that region, that it would greatly increase safety by civil aircraft to identify itself. less it gets mis-intercepted.

2) If you want to challenge that China's ADIZ rules, specifically its "ALL ID" rules are extra-ordinary. well, too bad because China's ADIZ rule is just like those of Australia's ADIZ rules... see my previous analysis here.
So there is really no grounds to challenge china's ADIZ in ICAO.

3) As far as I know ICAO has excellent working relations with China. ICAO is not an organization where china is lacking in lobbying power.

 

[i.e.]

OT, but who would you consider as particularly right wing and conservative in China?

Those who wants a war tomorrow to solve all of their perceived problems.

 

[i.e.]

China has crossed Japan's imaginary territorial boundary multiple times, both with ships and aircraft. Whether there have been PLAAF fighters crossing that boundary is irrelevant, as it doesn't alter the reality that the boundary has been crossed and Japan could do nothing about it.




China does not recognize the sky above Diaoyudao as Japan's territorial airspace, regardless of whether Japan accepts there is a dispute or not. If Japan aircraft were to shoot at PLAAF aircraft, that would be an act of war and PLAAF aircraft will shoot back. Chinese government has made that very clear already. As a result, Japan wasn't able to carry out its threat the last few times China sent in aircraft belonging to CMS.

The one of the Basis for JApan China Relations is that the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands in East China Sea is an item of dispute and is to be solved later.

Once japan deny that, there is no basis for that any more.

Whatever Japanese media and politicans feed SamuraiBlue, it is clearly has done the ordinary population (like that of SamuraiBlue ) and Japan as a whole, a disservice.

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Just want to add a bit more...

At Same time the vast majority in China understands that at least on Diaoyu Island issue it may need to compromise.

China almost always compromise on these things with those whom it consider to have good relations. (There are precedents, The settled Land Border with Russia, Vietnam , K-Stan, NKorea, etc, in which the other party got more than the half in dispute)

Japan couple of months ago may have had a chance to negotiate with China. and get something out of it. at least keep the issue from boiling over.

Now the political environment in china on this issue has evaporated. the Vast majority is not willing to compromise and consider at least the Abe Government a giant A-Hole.

Even Japan wants to go back an negotiate. It may not be able to do it now with out a giant bow.