East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[SampanViking]

Where do you work? I ask because you seem to know what others don't, like US and Chinese startegies over Eastern Asia. I know there are some knowledgeable users posting around here who had access to the strictly confidential sources like PLAN videos of Japanese warship manouvering between Chinese ships during naval drill and the likes of that so I respect and acknowledge those users...

Dear Rutim
I think you need to tone down your manner when replying to other forum users here.
You are more than welcome to make your point (subject to the rules) as long as it is done with civility.

All members please note.
This is a contentious issue to all sides involved and we have been very indulgent to date with our moderation response. As long as members continue to keep a good level of professional debate, we are pleased to let the conversation run.
If it becomes abusive, personal and generally nothing other than flame bait, sanctions will be applied to offending members.
Thank you

 

[andyhugfan]

I would love to see this thread closed for a while, until things cool down. It's drawing attention away from other, much more interesting threads!!! I want MOAR pictures and less talking about political garbage.

 

[kroko]

I agree that the wording is ambiguous. However the Chinese defense ministry has also said they deployed J-11, Su-30 and J-10 fighters for "identification".

If it was only AEWC/ELINT aircraft to ID the planes they wouldn't need to sortie fighters.

At this stage I'm inclined to believe that their fighters did at least monitor the US and Japanese aircraft -- that is to say, they were sortied. Whether they flew right up close to them close enough to take pictures is another story.

Frankly I think the PLA may have motivation to actually not fly up too close to escalate tensions.

So I do modify my previous statement -- I believe China has sent multiple aircraft up in the past day to "monitor" and "identify" the various aircraft. Technically that is not be the same as "interception," but depending on the proximity between the fighters and the US/Japanese aircraft, it certainly demonstrates that the PLAAF and PLANAF fighters have the capability to get in close shoudl they want to.

The facts we know:
The PLA tracked and IDed the specified US and Japanese aircraft
The PLA sortied fighters, including flankers and J-10s

Whether those fighters were up close "intercepts" is a different story, but then again what constitutes an "intercept"? 10km away or 100m away?

Certainly you don't need fighters up there to do the job that a single KJ-2000 or KJ-200 can do.

Yes.
Like I said, the wording is ambiguous.

They have the means to intercept those planes. They havent, becuase they dont really need to, and because they dont want to escalate things further. There is no need to launch fighters just to identify foreign military planes. The reason why they are launching warplanes is mainly for internal comsumption, to give the impression that they are "defending" the ADIZ, coupled with ambiguous press wording that tries to mask their true actions.

Once again, they seem to avoid foreign military aircraft

the problem of not intercepting foreign military planes is that it discredits PLA and the chinese government, specially after they had warned of consequences if foreign military planes did not comply with the rules of ADIZ.

The US and japan dont like china to install an ADIZ. Thats why they took advantage of the poorly setup of the ADIZ to heavily criticise it. IMO The announcement by the US government for the civilian Airlines to comply with the ADIZ rules is just another way to demonize the chinese ADIZ, presenting the possibility that china could harm the civilian planes.

Bad PR for PLA and china.

 

[port_08]

Airlines Urged by U.S. to Give Notice to China

WASHINGTON — On the same day that China scrambled fighter jets to enforce its newly declared air defense zone, the Obama administration decided to advise American commercial airlines to comply with China’s demands to be notified in advance of flights through the area.

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US government is being pragmatic here. The operation safety of US airliners of course is priority. I don't think US would ask their civilian aircrafts to "flout the rules", which they themselves created for others to follow with their own ADIZ. It would be rather looking silly. China always accused the US of double standard and it cannot be more obvious then this.

Military wise, it's another matter. Of course, US have to "take care" of the feelings of their regional allies like Japan and South Korea, but China beef of the matter is with Japan. That's why when you read the news, China say they would discuss with South Korea offline, keeping good relation and maybe a little disagreement here for the tiny bit overlap as the case with Taiwan (remember ADIZ is not territorial claim, just an advance notification zone), and with current Taiwan ruling government. Both South Korea & Taiwan although "unhappy" but not as unhappy as Japan, since China draw the ADIZ purposely to biggest overlap with Japan own ADIZ. In the media, China already spelt out...our problem is with Japan to signal to US and others.

 

[Rutim]

Airlines Urged by U.S. to Give Notice to China

WASHINGTON — On the same day that China scrambled fighter jets to enforce its newly declared air defense zone, the Obama administration decided to advise American commercial airlines to comply with China’s demands to be notified in advance of flights through the area.

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Question: Is there any specific guidance or information we are giving to U.S. carriers operating in China's recently declared Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ)?

Answer: Freedom of overflight and other internationally lawful uses of sea and airspace are essential to prosperity, stability, and security in the Pacific. We remain deeply concerned by China's November 23 declaration of an "East China Sea Air Identification Zone."

The U.S. government generally expects that U.S. carriers operating internationally will operate consistent with NOTAMs (Notices to Airmen) issued by foreign countries. Our expectation of operations by U.S. carriers consistent with NOTAMs does not indicate U.S. government acceptance of China's requirements for operating in the newly declared ADIZ.

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[thunderchief]

When the SR-71 came out, nothing in anyone's arsenal could touch them (not even the Foxbats, though they certainly tried). They routinely flew over Soviet and Chinese territory with impunity and in the case of China, only stopped after the relationships between China and the U.S. warmed during the 1980s.

Not true , SR-71s avoided Soviet airspace . Mig-25s routinely intercepted them in international airspace (so called Baltic express) , but of course no shoots were fired . You could read about that :

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[bajingan]

And that makes me wonder whether US nuclear umbrella will still apply in such case, since basically ... [REMOVDED].

Of course I said this just hypothetically to share my idea no matter how unlikely this will actually happen

--------------- Moderator's Edit ---------------------

>>>BAJINGAN, your are relatively new here, and have not posted very much. This is a professional military forum where many nations are represented. We are dedicated to discussing military matters, particularly as they related to China in a civl, rational, and non-emotional and non-threatening way.

This thread is a contentious subject.

Your talk about using weapons against Japan 's nuclear plant MUST STOP NOW, or you will be banned from the forum.

Siegecrossbow just gave you a warning...you can see it on the BANNED/WARNED MEMBERS THREAD

Go through the last several pages of this thread and read the items in Bold Blue where moderators have advised about how they behave on this thread.

Also, READ THE FORUM RULES.

We are at a very critical period on this thread. Posts have been deleted (including your initial suggestion of this.

Here's a hint: I you have to preface a post with the idea that is it not meant as flame bat...then it is most probably flame bait.

People have been warned on this thread. Now you have too.<<<

 

[vesicles]

And that makes me wonder whether US nuclear umbrella will still apply in such case...

Of course I said this just hypothetically to share my idea no matter how unlikely this will actually happen, just to point out Japan biggest vulnerability that people sometimes overlooked

Vulnerability or not, China cannot and will not target it. It is a civilian target! Even mentioning such act would put China in a bad light. Even when the worse comes to the worst, an all out war starts between China and Japan, China May attack Japanese strategic targets using conventional weapons, but attacking a nuclear plant will NOT be even contemplated. I suggest you leave this subject immediately. Just because the Japanese did terrible things in China in WWII, it does not mean Chinese have to do the same.

 

[Jeff Head]

But the B-52s patrolled only the bare edge of the eastern side of the ADIZ.
China definitely could have sent fighters there and it was obviously a deliberate choice to not to.

Exactly, which passed the message I indicated. Does not matter if it was the "edge." It was the "Zone," that the PRC established requiring flight plans, transponder ifo, etc. Their reaction serves to show that they do not intend to "affect" flights flying according to international law...and who are not posing a threat to China.

If it was only AEWC/ELINT aircraft to ID the planes they wouldn't need to sortie fighters.

AEW aircraft are not sent up alone. Fightrers receive info from them and have their own sensors as well.

I do not believe a single of those aircraft was intercepted in the classic sense. I do believe the PRC identified them, just as they said, and passed the message that they are monitoring the ADIZ and have the capability of intercept if they deem it necessary.

At this stage I'm inclined to believe that their fighters did at least monitor the US and Japanese aircraft -- that is to say, they were sortied. Whether they flew right up close to them close enough to take pictures is another story.

Agreed, and that was their whole intent.

I do modify my previous statement -- I believe China has sent multiple aircraft up in the past day to "monitor" and "identify" the various aircraft. Technically that is not be the same as "interception," but depending on the proximity between the fighters and the US/Japanese aircraft, it certainly demonstrates that the PLAAF and PLANAF fighters have the capability to get in close shoudl they want to.

Agreed.

 

[Jeff Head]

Whilst other countries' military aircraft don't comply with the procedure China has set down for this area, it only exists on paper, I'm afraid.

It exists for its intended, primary purpose. To protect the Chinese mainland. It was never established (IMHO) to intercept every aircraft flying through it...particularly not military aircraft as that area is a place for exercises and normal military activities by several nations.

so the Chinese have now shown that they monitor the airspace to those ends.