East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[Blackstone]

Even the Russians did not enter Japanese territorial air space only ADIZ.

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(Reuters) - Two Russian bombers briefly entered Japan's air space near its major southern island of Kyushu on Thursday, prompting Japan to scramble its fighter jets and lodge a protest, the Japanese government said, but Russia denied any intrusion.

The two TU-95 bombers spent less than two minutes in Japan's airspace, in the first such incursion since February, when two Russian fighter jets entered Japan's air space near its main northern island of Hokkaido, the Japanese defense ministry said.

Japan scrambled F-2 combat jets in response.

But Russia denied any intrusion.

"Two Tu-95MS strategic bombers conducted routine flights over the neutral waters in the Sea of Japan and the Pacific Ocean," the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement.

"According to control equipment on board, state borders were not violated. The long-haul aircraft were accompanied by Japanese Air Force fighter jets throughout their flight over neutral waters."

The incident comes after Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and Russian President Vladimir Putin agreed in April to revive talks on resolving a long-running territorial dispute.

Tokyo and Moscow have conflicting claims over a string of islets called the Southern Kurils in Russia and the Northern Territories in Japan, which have prevented the two from signing a treaty formally ending their World War Two hostilities.

Japanese Defense and foreign ministry officials declined to speculate on the reasons behind what they consider an intrusion.

 

[Blitzo]

1st, the B-52 entry into the zone was a challenge in the sense that they wanted to see how aggressive the Chinese would be to that type of entry.

A B-52 is slow and gainly. The Chinese, if they identified them early on as they indicate, could easily have gotten out there in those two plus hours and shewed them away...but they did not and the US found out more about the PRC's intent.

But the B-52s patrolled only the bare edge of the eastern side of the ADIZ.
China definitely could have sent fighters there and it was obviously a deliberate choice to not to.

As to the others. Did the PRC say they actually intercepted them. I read that they identified them.

Fact is, I do not believe they intercepted any of them as in getting right up next to them and flying along side.

I believe they identified them and that is a huge difference. If the aircraft are operating in the ADIZ in a normal, non-war footing, then their emissions and their radar signature will allow the Chinese to identify that at pretty long distances. I believe that is what happened.

I agree that the wording is ambiguous. However the Chinese defense ministry has also said they deployed J-11, Su-30 and J-10 fighters for "identification".

If it was only AEWC/ELINT aircraft to ID the planes they wouldn't need to sortie fighters.

At this stage I'm inclined to believe that their fighters did at least monitor the US and Japanese aircraft -- that is to say, they were sortied. Whether they flew right up close to them close enough to take pictures is another story.

Frankly I think the PLA may have motivation to actually not fly up too close to escalate tensions.

So I do modify my previous statement -- I believe China has sent multiple aircraft up in the past day to "monitor" and "identify" the various aircraft. Technically that is not be the same as "interception," but depending on the proximity between the fighters and the US/Japanese aircraft, it certainly demonstrates that the PLAAF and PLANAF fighters have the capability to get in close shoudl they want to.


The facts we know:
The PLA tracked and IDed the specified US and Japanese aircraft
The PLA sortied fighters, including flankers and J-10s

Whether those fighters were up close "intercepts" is a different story, but then again what constitutes an "intercept"? 10km away or 100m away?

Certainly you don't need fighters up there to do the job that a single KJ-2000 or KJ-200 can do.

An EP-3 that has any of its sensors in any active mode, and E-767, a P-3, and even the fighters, if operating in a non-war mode with any sensors actively in operation will be able to be identified without ever getting anywhere close to them...or even in missile range.

And that is fine. The Chinese in admitting and revealing this are saying that they are monitoring that space. But in not getting all hot to trot and sending the aircraft right up along side them are actually doing what the spokesman said.

Yes.
Like I said, the wording is ambiguous.

 

[xiabonan]

It's about defending sovereign rights. If PLAAF fighter planes flew within Japanese territorial air space and does not adhere and comply various warning to move away from territorial air space then that would be considered as a military provocation by the PLAAF.

I would love to see this happen. So does the Chinese government and her people. This wouldn't be a smart move by the Japanese government, trust me. And also, please stop posting these because it inevitably leads to the closing down of this thread.

 

[Cyclist]

I think this is getting out of topic. The topic is not about the islands belong to whom, but about China ADIZ.

SamuraiBlue, I admire your patriotism toward Japan, but let's admit that Diaoyu/Senkaku is disputed territory. If it is not disputed territory and it belongs to Japan, why USA can not clearly say it so? So far, USA only gives vague respond whether the islands belong to whom, but as we can see recently by sending bombers, USA indeed will protect Japan if China decides to take the islands by force. But, even USA as Japan main ally and protector, can not decide who the islands belong to.

I don't know much history of the islands, but the simple fact that USA can not decide who the islands belong to, clearly show that those islands are disputed territory. Why USA? USA occupies part of Japan. USA is main ally and protector of Japan. Much of Modern Japan is the creation of USA, I think USA has a lot of say regarding Japan territorial rights.

If USA considers it is indeed undisputed territory of Japan, why not just say it clear and loud?

 

[Mr T]

Guys, just leave the sovereignty issue alone. No one is going to "win" the discussion, and I think everyone here has set views that aren't going to be shifted.

Jeff & co have shown a lot of tolerance, so let's get this thread back on topic.

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U.S. commercial airlines should observe China’s demand that Beijing be given notice of aircraft entering its newly declared air defense zone, the State Department said Friday.

The Pentagon earlier indicated that American military forces would continue normal operations, despite China scrambling fighter jets to monitor U.S. and Japanese aircraft in the area.

...Compliance by commercial flights “does not indicate U.S. government acceptance of China’s requirements for operating in the newly declared ADIZ,” the State Department said in a statement.

Echoing previous statements by President Barack Obama’s administration, it said the United States was “deeply concerned” by China’s declaration of the ADIZ.

Japan, South Korea, the United States and other countries have accused Beijing of increasing regional tensions with the air defense zone.

But the scrambling of “several combat aircraft” by China, including at least two fighter jets — according to the official Xinhua News Agency — threatens to escalate the situation.

“Several combat aircraft were scrambled to verify the identities” of U.S. and Japanese aircraft entering the air defense zone, Xinhua said, quoting air force spokesman Shen Jinke.

The Chinese aircraft identified two U.S. surveillance aircraft and 10 Japanese aircraft, including an F-15 warplane, Shen said.

 

[Blitzo]

Heh, the power of phrasing.

But the scrambling of “several combat aircraft” by China, including at least two fighter jets — according to the official Xinhua News Agency — threatens to escalate the situation.

So the US sending a few B-52s skirting on the edge of the ADIZ is apparently an act of defiance, and if China sorties fighters to ID and monitor (possibly intercept depending on distance) those aircraft, it is an "escalation".


Semantics are the best.


I'm wondering why the article doesn't just directly quote the ministry of defence instead of getting information from xinhua.

 

[LesAdieux]

I would love to see this happen. So does the Chinese government and her people. This wouldn't be a smart move by the Japanese government, trust me. And also, please stop posting these because it inevitably leads to the closing down of this thread.

the guy is desperate, I guess he will finish as a suicide bomber! remember that: 一億人总玉碎，it's 70 years overdue, we'll help them to accomplish it this time.

 

[SampanViking]

I think I can distil two distinct events from the running of the ESCADIZ so far.

Did China mishandle the first day?
No I don't think it did. They made the announcement and gave the neighbours time to respond. Can you imagine the press if China had sent whole Airwings of the PLAAF on day one? I think China gave others the chance to respect the new air zone and ensured that its operational posture was proportional to the reaction generated.

US support for Japan?
Best described as the minimum possible, necessary response. Posters here have been so busy talking about the overhyped media response to such a small actual US operation, that I suspect many have lost sight of the fact that it was a very small US operation.
I would further say a disappointment for Japan as the big media fanfare over not very much, means that the US will say that it has made its point and done so loudly, clearly and unambiguously so not to expect any/many more "significant" gestures.

Grumblings aside, the ADIZ is now a reality and the PRC has elbowed its way into the Airspace over the East China Sea.

 

[bajingan]

No since PLAAF never responded from the start. As proof you can see the amount of JASDF making scramble against PLAAF intrusion into Japanese ADIZ which didn't start yesterday.

What I mean is that China's ADIZ is just China's way of saying to Japan that from now on we will formally ignore your ADIZ and they will begin conducting military flights on Japan's ADIZ more frequently than before.

Will they be intercepted by JASDF everytime they do so? of course just like Russian bears got intercepted by F-15s/F-22s in Alaska ADIZ.

 

[Rutim]

No I don't think it did. They made the announcement and gave the neighbours time to respond. Can you imagine the press if China had sent whole Airwings of the PLAAF on day one?

Nope? What would it be? And what's the point of 'sending whole Airwings' there?

US support for Japan?
Best described as the minimum possible, necessary response.

They showed that they will continue on patrolling the region without calling China for permission.

I would further say a disappointment for Japan as the big media fanfare over not very much, means that the US will say that it has made its point and done so loudly, clearly and unambiguously so not to expect any/many more "significant" gestures.

What would those 'significant' gestures be in your imagination?

Grumblings aside, the ADIZ is now a reality and the PRC has elbowed its way into the Airspace over the East China Sea.

It's intenational airspace. Palau could 'elbow it's way into the Airspace over East China Sea' if they had any fighters that could go there. If you make such conclusions about 'opening airspace' etc I can tell you that China rammed through already open doors waiting for domestic applaud. This sums it up pretty good in my opinion.

What I mean is that China's ADIZ is just China's way of saying to Japan that from now on we will formally ignore your ADIZ and they will begin conducting military flights on Japan's ADIZ more frequently than before.

Woah, they were doing that already twice a day. I hope Chinese MoD will report the patrols on it's website so that Japanese won't have to bother sending their planes there every time