East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[FarkTypeSoldier]

It's about defending sovereign rights. If PLAAF fighter planes flew within Japanese territorial air space and does not adhere and comply various warning to move away from territorial air space then that would be considered as a military provocation by the PLAAF in which at that point it doesn't matter who shot
Basically PLAAF declared war at the point of not complying to warnings signaled out by Japan.

Are you sure this is the case?

 

[Blackstone]

It's about defending sovereign rights. If PLAAF fighter planes flew within Japanese territorial air space and does not adhere and comply various warning to move away from territorial air space then that would be considered as a military provocation by the PLAAF in which at that point it doesn't matter who shot the first shot.
Basically PLAAF declared war at the point of not complying to warnings signaled out by Japan.

One of the problems with your thesis is the Soviet Union in the past and Russia in the present repeatedly overflew Japanese air space, but Japan never shot at them or claimed Russian/Soviet actions were acts of war. Firing first at PLAx assets would make Japan look like the aggressor, and it could also negate US-Japan defense treaty.

 

[Blitzo]

It's about defending sovereign rights. If PLAAF fighter planes flew within Japanese territorial air space and does not adhere and comply various warning to move away from territorial air space then that would be considered as a military provocation by the PLAAF in which at that point it doesn't matter who shot the first shot.
Basically PLAAF declared war at the point of not complying to warnings signaled out by Japan.

But it'll be Japan firing the first shot.

Perceptions of who "declared war" will depend entirely on whether they believe the islands are inherent and undisputed Japanese territory, or territory that is disputed.


One of those positions is far more extreme and inflexible than the other.

 

[Jeff Head]

A few more details regarding the intercepted aircraft.

Anyone who still think the B-52 incursion was a "challenge" clearly didn't realize how they were barely in the ADIZ in the first place, and it was a Chinese choice to not bother intercepting them rather than an incapability.

Now with over a dozen Japanese/US aircraft entering the ADIZ in a day all IDed or intercepted, it's obvious the PLAAF and PLANAF can do its interception duties. So anyone still harping on about the B-52s are basically playing a broken record.

1st, the B-52 entry into the zone was a challenge in the sense that they wanted to see how aggressive the Chinese would be to that type of entry.

A B-52 is slow and gainly. The Chinese, if they identified them early on as they indicate, could easily have gotten out there in those two plus hours and shewed them away...but they did not and the US found out more about the PRC's intent.

As to the others. Did the PRC say they actually intercepted them. I read that they identified them.

Fact is, I do not believe they intercepted any of them as in getting right up next to them and flying along side.

I believe they identified them and that is a huge difference. If the aircraft are operating in the ADIZ in a normal, non-war footing, then their emissions and their radar signature will allow the Chinese to identify that at pretty long distances. I believe that is what happened.

An EP-3 that has any of its sensors in any active mode, and E-767, a P-3, and even the fighters, if operating in a non-war mode with any sensors actively in operation will be able to be identified without ever getting anywhere close to them...or even in missile range.

And that is fine. The Chinese in admitting and revealing this are saying that they are monitoring that space. But in not getting all hot to trot and sending the aircraft right up along side them are actually doing what the spokesman said.

The spokesman also said, "Aircraft of all countries, including commercial aircraft, carrying out normal flight according to international law will not be affected."

 

[SamuraiBlue]

Are you sure this is the case?

What do you think would happen if happened in any other parts of the world?
Would the US tolerate Russian fighters violating US territorial air space not heeding towards US warnings?
Would it be any different if it was the other way around when the Americans were to violate Russian air space?
How about if the Russians were to send fighters within PRC air space and not heed PRC warnings?

All would result in the same way, the planes not complying to warnings will be shot down. It's basically shooting a trespasser within your own property in which is accepted as act of self defense.
If Japan didn't it would set an example of unprecedented result against Japan.

 

[Blitzo]

The problem with Global Times is it's a propaganda organ of the CCP, therefore lacks credibility as a free and unbiased Press.

And western and Japanese media are unbiased press?

Come on, you know as well as we do that both sides can twist the facts to their liking, and all media aside have vested interests in telling one story over another.


And regardless of how "credible" the global times is, the information in that article is direct from the Chinese defense ministry. Unless you're suggesting they're lying about intercepting and IDing all those specific aircraft.


If anything, chinese state media is a goldmine for people who want greater insight into facts which western media (possibly purposefully) overlook. Because in this day and age not even the most powerful "propaganda organs" can lie about facts which can be easily disseminated to a wide audience that can dissect its potential validity.
And this sword cuts both ways for both the world's state media organizations and the world's so called "free press".


---


In any case, the fact remains that China has intercepted the various aircraft and have demonstrated their capability to do so in the past day. I consider 10+ aircraft of different types as a decent achievement in a day.
The first day of many.

 

[SamuraiBlue]

One of the problems with your thesis is the Soviet Union in the past and Russia in the present repeatedly overflew Japanese air space, but Japan never shot at them or claimed Russian/Soviet actions were acts of war. Firing first at PLAx assets would make Japan look like the aggressor, and it could also negate US-Japan defense treaty.

Even the Russians did not enter Japanese territorial air space only ADIZ.

 

[Jeff Head]

It's about defending sovereign rights. If PLAAF fighter planes flew within Japanese territorial air space and does not adhere and comply various warning to move away from territorial air space then that would be considered as a military provocation by the PLAAF in which at that point it doesn't matter who shot the first shot.

The Self defense force may do this with respect to an occupied, clearly undisputed Japanese Island...but I do not believe they will not do so over these islands.

To do so would be to invite the Chinese to win the perception war, invite the US not to be involved, and leave Japan in a very precarious situation.

I believe both sides will end up monitoring one another...maybe a few times up close and personal. But I do not believe either side will initiate hostilities. Both have too much to lose.

If the Japanese are wise, they will simply continue to monitor and administer the islands and ignore the PLAAF aircraft who happen to come on the scene. My guess is,. if they do so, the PLAAF will settle into a routine where they do likewise in return.

But...that aside, and once again,

All posters are advised one last time to stop the statements indicating that either side or the other will fire on the other's aircraft or vessels. It will only lead to flame wars...and I promise you, it will soon lead to suspensions from SD.

 

[Equation]

What do you think would happen if happened in any other parts of the world?
Would the US tolerate Russian fighters violating US territorial air space not heeding towards US warnings?
Would it be any different if it was the other way around when the Americans were to violate Russian air space?
How about if the Russians were to send fighters within PRC air space and not heed PRC warnings?

All would result in the same way, the planes not complying to warnings will be shot down. It's basically shooting a trespasser within your own property in which is accepted as act of self defense.
If Japan didn't it would set an example of unprecedented result against Japan.

So according to your logic Japan's entire national defense rest mostly by intimidation? So shooting down planes that crosses the ADIZ is a good reason for war? You do know that an ADIZ (all over the world) is NOT an exact red line right?

 

[Jeff Head]

Unless you're suggesting they're lying about intercepting and IDing all those specific aircraft.

In any case, the fact remains that China has intercepted the various aircraft and have demonstrated their capability to do so in the past day. I consider 10+ aircraft of different types as a decent achievement in a day.

Again, Bltizo, the PRC officials never say that they intercepted anything. The specifically say,

The People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force Friday scrambled fighter jets to identify US and Japanese military aircraft in China's newly established Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) over the East China Sea.

They then talk about patrols, identifications, monitoring, and in fact releasing the fact that they ID'ed the aircraft as a warning.

They never say they intercepted them.

As I explained in my last post, the two things are far different.

And by indentifying them the PRC indicates that it will monitor the air space and itself identify aircraft if necessary, but also in keeping with their statements that aircraft of other nations operating normally will not be affected they did not hot dog it right up to every aircraft they see unless they think it is operating abnormally. I take that to mean that they view it as a threat.