Let's talk about the J-8II

[plawolf]

So is there any kind of technical cooperation between the two? They might not share design, but do they share technology at least?

I am not 100% sure, but I strongly doubt it with what I know about how research institutes work in China.

They are all state funded, but they compete directly with each other for those state grants as well as orders from the air force, navy and foreign customers.

In addition, the higher ups in Beijing recognize the value of competition, so they will not normally force rival companies to pool resources. Without pressure from up top, there is just no reason for them to co-operate in that way. If both companies had failed to come up with a decent 5th gen proposal, then Beijing might have stepped in and made them work together to make sure the PLAAF got something decent, but since both managed to come up with their own designs, I think Beijing would see that as evidence that the current competitive set up is working just fine and see no reason to change it.

Having said that, it is worth remembering that neither CAC or SAC does everything in-house themselves. A lot of the subsystems are contracted out to other specialist companies, like the engines and radar for example.

Now, as far as I understand it, both companies are responsible for selecting their own subcontractors when they are putting together a fighter for the air force, and obviously for security, they try to pick different sub-contractors. But if there is one subcontractor that is obviously head and shoulders above everyone else, then both companies will use them. The engines is a good example despite the possible SAC backroom shenanigans as we are seeing J10Bs powered by WS10As now.

At the end of the day, everyone follows the money and authority. If CAC got the PLAAF contract and SAC had the better radar subcontractors during the bidding process, you can bet the radar guys would want to jump ship to get the big orders, and if their wares are really better than CAC's radar guys' offerings, CAC would take them up.

At the end of the say, SAC and CAC just develop the airframes, whoever wins that has their pick of the best subcontractors so there isn't really an issue with one company blocking access to critical technology or systems (unless they happened to be air frame related, but in which case, such a technological lead would help them to win the contract in the first place) so the PLAAF will always get the best available.

 

[stardave]

Ok thanks, that make sense, as long as the competition does not get out of hand to the point where they forget what is the original purpose. Sometimes competition is the best incentive for technological progress.

 

[Engineer]

CAC got by by making the J7, they did some good work on the J9 study, but that ultimately fell through because of the engine. They made their big breakthrough when their chief designer gate crashed the air force's next gen fighter proposal meeting at the urgence of an Air Force higher up fed up with SAC's incompetence. CAC stole the shown and turned a slam dunk for SAC into an actual competition, which they then went on to win. That project led to the J10 and the rest is history. And now it's SAC's turn to feel the weight of the chip on their shoulder.

Originally, J-20 was also going to be a project of SAC. The 386 leader wanted the aircraft to be readied (first flight?) before 2015, but SAC said this couldn't be done until 2020 and even then the product would be inferior to F-22. Once again fed up with SAC's incompetence, PLAAF opened up the project for competition. Not only was CAC's proposal superior to SAC's, Dr. Song also personally guaranteed that J-20 would fly before 2012. History repeated itself so now CAC got the J-20.

The rivalry between the two is such that it has hinted at that the reason the J10 still uses the AL31 is because SAC has the WS10A maker in their pocket and was using all it's influence to make sure their J11 got priority.

I wouldn't call that rivalry but rather the typical cheap tactics that SAC employs.

The thing is that after SAC lost the competition, they claimed CAC lied saying that it would be impossible for J-20 to be readied before 2020. So, SAC sent a bunch of people to General Armaments Department to complain and to try to pressure the air force into nullify the result of the competition. SAC also used its influence in AVIC and forced CAC into coughing up some structural design work for SAC. I think around the same time, AVIC also tried to replace Dr. Song with a person from SAC. Suffice to say, the air force was not pleased, and created a special department to oversee the J-20 project directly afterward.

 

[stardave]

Originally, J-20 was also going to be a project of SAC. The 386 leader wanted the aircraft to be readied (first flight?) before 2015, but SAC said this couldn't be done until 2020 and even then the product would be inferior to F-22. Once again fed up with SAC's incompetence, PLAAF opened up the project for competition. Not only was CAC's proposal superior to SAC's, Dr. Song also personally guaranteed that J-20 would fly before 2012. History repeated itself so now CAC got the J-20.



I wouldn't call that rivalry but rather the typical cheap tactics that SAC employs.

The thing is that after SAC lost the competition, they claimed CAC lied saying that it would be impossible for J-20 to be readied before 2020. So, SAC sent a bunch of people to General Armaments Department to complain and to try to pressure the air force into nullify the result of the competition. SAC also used its influence in AVIC and forced CAC into coughing up some structural design work for SAC. I think around the same time, AVIC also tried to replace Dr. Song with a person from SAC. Suffice to say, the air force was not pleased, and created a special department to oversee the J-20 project directly afterward.

Thanks for the info, very informative. So about this competition, is SAC's candidate the recently exposed F-60/J-21? Or do they still have something in the heavy class of F-22/J-20 that is still not yet made it is first flight.

 

[Engineer]

Thanks for the info, very informative. So about this competition, is SAC's candidate the recently exposed F-60/J-21? Or do they still have something in the heavy class of F-22/J-20 that is still not yet made it is first flight.

No. SAC's candidate was in the heavy weight class with a triplane configuration. It wasn't something that SAC could have realistically pull off anyway. As far as I know, F-60 has no relation whatsoever with that triplane design and is purely a private venture.

 

[stardave]

No. SAC's candidate was in the heavy weight class with a triplane configuration. It wasn't something that SAC could have realistically pull off anyway. As far as I know, F-60 has no relation whatsoever with that triplane design and is purely a private venture.

Is that triplane still planning to fly? Or have SAC give up on that seeing the success of J-20?

 

[Engineer]

Is that triplane still planning to fly? Or have SAC give up on that seeing the success of J-20?

That triplane is just a paper airplane. Like I have said already, it wasn't something that SAC could have pulled off.

As to whether SAC gave up, the answer is no in my opinion. They probably have some unrealistic expectation that the air force would purchase F-60, but it simply isn't going to happen.

 

[A.Man]

My Goodness, Shenfei Still Trying To Reinvent The Wheel?

[video]http://js.tudouui.com/bin/player2/olc_7.swf?iid=126057843&swfPath=http://js.tudouui.com/bin/player2/olm_28.swf&cdnType=1&tag=%E6%B2%88%E9%A3%9E%E6%96%B0%E6%9C%BA%E5%AE%A3% E4%BC%A0%E7%89%87+%E6%AD%BC8%E5%87%BB%E8%90%BDF-16&title=%E6%B2%88%E9%A3%9E%E6%96%B0%E6%9C%BA%E5%AE%A 3%E4%BC%A0%E7%89%87+%E6%AD%BC8%E5%87%BB%E8%90%BDF-16&mediaType=vi&totalTime=310220&hdType=0&hasPassword=0&nWidth=-1&isOriginal=0&channelId=21&nHeight=-1&banPublic=false&videoOwner=110278946&tict=3&autoPlay=false&listType=0&rurl=&resourceId=0_04_02_99&autostart=false&snap_pic=http%3A%2F%2Fi4.tdimg.com%2F126%2F057%2F8 43%2Fw.jpg&code=F8ULhlqk6tI&aopRate=0.001&adSourceId=81000&yjuid=null&yseid=null&yseidtimeout=null&yseidcount=null[/video]

 

[Deino]

My Goodness, Shenfei Still Trying To Reinvent The Wheel?

Can't open the video !! ... can You just PLEASE tell, what's so special ?

 

[Deino]

My Goodness, Shenfei Still Trying To Reinvent The Wheel?

Can't open the video !! ... can You just PLEASE tell, what's so special ?