052/052B Class Destroyers

[Schumacher]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

If I had intended to be provocative it would take little for me to make it quite obvious. You need to grow a thick skin or else probably you should consider not posting on internet forums. I mean it.

Let's take this to its logical conclusion. The Type 052C fires 4 YJ-62's, hardly consistuting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. The Type 052C then makes a 180 degree turn and fires its remaining 4 YJ-62's, hardly constituting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. Now what is the Type 052C going to do? Swear loudly?

A consecutive wave of 4 missiles is enough to sink T45. Actually, in a ship vs ship, or aircraft vs aircraft for that matter, scenario where one can attack while the other can only defend, it's already clear the attacking side has the upper hand.

 

[PikeCowboy]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

people need to stop deluding themselves by confusing lack of political will with lack of inherent technological capability. Space programs, especially manned programs, are expensive both politically and economically. But IMO if ESA and even JAXA had the will to institute such programs back in the day, they would be far ahead of where China is now.

...

Problem?

They certainly could have... but they didn't. Had Qing China the political will and the state finances to make the correct series of choices... I'm sure China would be the pre-eminent world power right now...

In other words, "could have" is irrelevent. With respect to ship building I don't think the Chinese are up to par with the west, but when it comes to Chinese space programs I have no doubt that China is significantly ahead of Europe and Japan in a large number of areas.

 

[Mysterre]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A consecutive wave of 4 missiles is enough to sink T45.

No. It wouldn't even be enough to sink the Type 052C, if by "sink" you actually mean "successfully hit". If it is, it would definitely be time to go back to the drawing board.

They certainly could have... but they didn't. Had Qing China the political will and the state finances to make the correct series of choices... I'm sure China would be the pre-eminent world power right now...

In other words, "could have" is irrelevent. With respect to ship building I don't think the Chinese are up to par with the west, but when it comes to Chinese space programs I have no doubt that China is significantly ahead of Europe and Japan in a large number of areas.

This isn't a case of coulda shoulda woulda. Obviously in the manned space program the Chinese are ahead, but that is because they spend the resources on it, not that ESA or JAXA lacks the technological capability to achieve it. Global Positioning? Ahead of Japan for sure since it doesn't have one, but I am not convinced the Compass is technologically superior to the Galileo. Space launch vehicles? The Ariane 5 at 21t/10.5t (depending on variant) has superior payload capacity compared to the largest LM (LM-3B) at 12t/5.5t and similar success rate; this situation will not change for at least another several years, assuming LM-5 is successful; then again, LM-5 could be bested by Ariane 6 coming out around 2020. Space control? ESA is proven to out to Mercury, Venus and Mars, while China is only proven out to the moon. Remote sensing? Hard to say as this is probably the most secretive of the lot, but it would surprise me if China has already surpassed Western European technology in this regard. The only program where China is definitely ahead is the manned program AFAIK. I may be missing some categories, but these are what I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mostly this. Just because both ships have AESA and similarly ranged SAM's doesn't mean the quality of those systems are the same. In fact it's easier for me to assume that they are not than for you to assume that they are. No doubt China has come a long way with naval warfare systems but just by what I know of the PLAN I would say they are not up to state of the art in naval technology. The UK is. Problem?

Not really. It's perfectly fine to have antiship missiles and main guns on ships, but comparing these barely important systems to each other and stating one ship is better than another on these bases is skewing the truly important aspects of capital ships these days, which is air defense, and to a lesser extent ASW and strike. In that regard, the missile system, radar system, and combat management system of a given ship is the true basis of comparison between different ships. Even if the 052C had better antiship missiles and main guns than the Type 45, I would still give the edge to the Type 45 based on its anti-air systems which I guess to be better than the Type 052C, and like I said, my bet on this is more likely than yours, and you know it.

Type 052C does have better anti ship missiles because type 45 has none.

Well your argument is basically type 45 is better at air defence because the UK are better at developing air defense systems. All anyone can rebut with is to say is I disagree, I suppose.

 

[Mysterre]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Type 052C does have better anti ship missiles because type 45 has none.

If you want to get technical, the Type 45 was built for but not with 2 quadruple rack Harpoons, so this situation could change, pretty much in an instant, if so desired.

Well your argument is basically type 45 is better at air defence because the UK are better at developing air defense systems.

That's exactly right. Exactly.

All anyone can rebut with is to say is I disagree, I suppose.

You can even go as far as Lion and say that the PLAN is ahead of the British in naval warfare technology if you want.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I fail to discern what you mean by this. And what do you mean by "shoot"? A YJ-62? A 100mm round? What? Why would a Type 45 only swear loudly at a Type 052C "shooting" at it?

Because Type 052C could shoot a YJ-62 anywhere up to 400 km away. type 45's 4.5 inch has what, twenty something kilometers? Unless you want to send out a lynx. AShMs of course don't have a massive success rate against modern surface combatants these days, but a helicopter would be even worse.

But actually, that is EXACTLY what Blitzo is saying.

Actually I was talking more specifically about naval AAW, but in certain areas of shipbuilding china certainly has met or exceeded the west if only in quantity/cost alone.

And Lion is saying that Chinese naval technology actually EXCEEDS the British! Now I'm no Westerncentric tech snob, but what's common sense should be common, and outside of firm confirmation otherwise from PLAN sources, Western naval technological superiority still holds. We will see a blurring of this technological distinction soon enough, but today is not that day. I will wait to see the outcome of the 052D program (if it actually exists) before I could grow any more confident that a tech parity with the West has been reached, or is even close.

Of course in various areas like engines the west are going to be far ahead of china for a good while.

But electronics, missile tech, I'd say the gap is smaller/nonexistent, between PRC and the euro countries at least.
Look if you were arguing that type 45 had S1850M in addition to SAMPSON, or had the mid ranged Aster 15 in addition to the HQ-9 ranged aster 30, or even if it was because it was a newer ship, as a basis for its more potent AAW then fair enough. But simply "west>china" isn't enough.

You can even go as far as Lion and say that the PLAN is ahead of the British in naval warfare technology if you want.

Wow why so snide.

 

[Mysterre]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

AShMs of course don't have a massive success rate against modern surface combatants these days.

And that is exactly my point. Exactly. It matters little to me that a 052C has 8 YJ-62's and a 45 has none.

Actually I was talking more specifically about naval AAW, but in certain areas of shipbuilding china certainly has met or exceeded the west if only in quantity/cost alone.

I would not grant you either of these. The main problem of course is that neither of us have any definitive proof, otherwise one of us would have busted it out already and the debate would be over. So all we have now is personal opinion, which I freely admit to but have not seen you do the same.

But electronics, missile tech, I'd say the gap is smaller/nonexistent, between PRC and the euro countries at least.
Look if you were arguing that type 45 had S1850M in addition to SAMPSON, or had the mid ranged Aster 15 in addition to the HQ-9 ranged aster 30, or even if it was because it was a newer ship, as a basis for its more potent AAW then fair enough. But simply "west>china" isn't enough.

Outside of detailed technical specs on combat data systems, radar performance and missile vs target trials, "west>china" or "west=china" is all you've got, and don't delude yourself into thinking you have any more than that.

Wow why so snide.

I thought a little humor would get my point across. It seems it worked, regardless of whether you actually found it to be funny.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I would not grant you either of these. The main problem of course is that neither of us have any definitive proof, otherwise one of us would have busted it out already and the debate would be over. So all we have now is personal opinion, which I freely admit to but have not seen you do the same.

Well it's currently accepted china is the second largest shipbuilding nation, a few million DWT off korea, depending which source you go to.

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Outside of detailed technical specs on combat data systems, radar performance and missile vs target trials, "west>china" or "west=china" is all you've got, and don't delude yourself into thinking you have any more than that.

Outside of detailed technical specs? You can get a quite few numbers open source, missile range, missile number, displacement, the weapons they're equipped with, radar, rough radar specs (for example). It's certainly a hell of a lot more than only "west>china" or "west=china". In fact, when you compare two ships, say, do you automatically make judgments about their capability based only on what country made them rather than looking at what specifications are out?

I thought a little humor would get my point across. It seems it worked, regardless of whether you actually found it to be funny.

Your point was what, exactly? All I got from that sentence was that you didn't think much of lion's opinion.

 

[kwaigonegin]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Because Type 052C could shoot a YJ-62 anywhere up to 400 km away. type 45's 4.5 inch has what, twenty something kilometers? Unless you want to send out a lynx. AShMs of course don't have a massive success rate against modern surface combatants these days, but a helicopter would be even worse.



Actually I was talking more specifically about naval AAW, but in certain areas of shipbuilding china certainly has met or exceeded the west if only in quantity/cost alone.



Of course in various areas like engines the west are going to be far ahead of china for a good while.

But electronics, missile tech, I'd say the gap is smaller/nonexistent, between PRC and the euro countries at least.
Look if you were arguing that type 45 had S1850M in addition to SAMPSON, or had the mid ranged Aster 15 in addition to the HQ-9 ranged aster 30, or even if it was because it was a newer ship, as a basis for its more potent AAW then fair enough. But simply "west>china" isn't enough.



Wow why so snide.

I think what everyone seem to forget is that NONE of the scenarios is possible even if a hypothetical PLAN and RN goes to war. For one if a Type 45 were go on a one on one battle with a 052C it is relatively easy to armed it with Harpoon/Exocet ASM. On the flip side it is not possible to suddenly make a 052C to have the superior anti air capabilites or defenses of the Type 45.

In my opinion a Type 45 with Harpoons has the edge vs the 052C in a one on one battle in the high seas.

---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 PM ----------

Because Type 052C could shoot a YJ-62 anywhere up to 400 km away. type 45's 4.5 inch has what, twenty something kilometers? Unless you want to send out a lynx. AShMs of course don't have a massive success rate against modern surface combatants these days, but a helicopter would be even worse.



Actually I was talking more specifically about naval AAW, but in certain areas of shipbuilding china certainly has met or exceeded the west if only in quantity/cost alone.



Of course in various areas like engines the west are going to be far ahead of china for a good while.

But electronics, missile tech, I'd say the gap is smaller/nonexistent, between PRC and the euro countries at least.
Look if you were arguing that type 45 had S1850M in addition to SAMPSON, or had the mid ranged Aster 15 in addition to the HQ-9 ranged aster 30, or even if it was because it was a newer ship, as a basis for its more potent AAW then fair enough. But simply "west>china" isn't enough.



Wow why so snide.

I think what everyone seem to forget is that NONE of the scenarios is possible even if a hypothetical PLAN and RN goes to war. For one if a Type 45 were go on a one on one battle with a 052C it is relatively easy to armed it with Harpoon/Exocet ASM. On the flip side it is not possible to suddenly make a 052C to have the superior anti air capabilites or defenses of the Type 45.

In my opinion a Type 45 with Harpoons has the edge vs the 052C in a one on one battle in the high seas.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think what everyone seem to forget is that NONE of the scenarios is possible even if a hypothetical PLAN and RN goes to war. For one if a Type 45 were go on a one on one battle with a 052C it is relatively easy to armed it with Harpoon/Exocet ASM. On the flip side it is not possible to suddenly make a 052C to have the superior anti air capabilites or defenses of the Type 45.

In my opinion a Type 45 with Harpoons has the edge vs the 052C in a one on one battle in the high seas.

I wasn't the first to suggest a battle between type 45 and 052C, I was only continuing the discussion. But I agree with you, such a scenario is rather pointless.
The discussion is now about what parameters we should use to assess say, one ship's air defence capabilities versus another and how much influence (relatively out of date) assumptions such as "west>china" should have, especially in light of significant development in relevant areas (such as radar, missile technology etc) which may have to cause revisions of such assumptions.

But I have to disagree with you there -- YJ-62 is one of the best if not the best subsonic anti ship cruise missiles currently out there. One of the longest ranges and largest warheads modern day AShMs have.
Although if YJ-62 and 052C were to take potshots at each other with their respective YJ-62 and harpoons, I doubt one missile will actually reach its mark given how capable the air defense systems of both ships are.