052/052B Class Destroyers

jobjed

Captain
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

how well will it pit against Type 052C in all assets of warfare? well its very hard to say, but as i said right at the start, in terms of air defence, nothing comes close to Type 45 Daring Class, this ship can see for hundreds of kilometres in land, sea and air, defend itself, a convoy and a landmark ALL at the same time

So basically, to simplify, it has an area air defence capability. We have no idea what the specs of the 052C's and the 45's radar are but it's reasonable to assume they both 'can see for hundreds of kilometres in land, sea and air' as can hundreds of other radars in the world. In terms of air defence, the 45 has 36 long range missiles and 12 short while the 052C has 48 long and no short; overall, the 052C has a longer engagement distance although that barely matters. It seems to me the 45 has no distinctive advantage over the 052C that we know about, although we barely know anything about 052C electronics. The 45 does look more stealthy though, perhaps that might help.

To say the UK shipbuilding sector is cutting edge is quite inaccurate. Many of its systems on board their 45s are develop in partnership with France and Italy. No European country would be able to develop an advance navy able to compete with the US or China today without the cooperation of multiple countries. As stated by another post, the UK's defence budget just cannot handle the R&D of all the sectors of the military, the primary UK fighter the Typhoon was developed in conjunction with the rest of Europe save France. Even the UK's assault rifle was upgraded by H&K and not a domestic company.

IMHO I think it is safe to say no single European country can effectively compete with China anymore, not since 2007 when China overtook Germany's economy. However, when the Europeans actually stop arguing and design something in conjunction for once, their products are still world-class and in many cases above world-class.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

i am in no way comparing the defence industrys of China and the UK like for like, I am merely saying that Type 45 is not a walk in the park, as some are suggesting they seem to think 4 anti-ship missiles can sink it!?

maybe they are forgetting why the Type 45 even came into being, it was after Falklands War when the Royal Navy suffered terrible losses to the French built Exocet, Type 45 was designed to shot them down, not secondary requirment or 3rd requirments, its Primary requirment is to down supersonic anti-ship missiles, thats its job and thats what it does best

Royal Navy has built the destroyer around this requirment, why do u think the radar is sitting so high, because thats the height it needs to be get full advantage, that is the eyes and ears of the ship, they have practiced and trained themselves for shooting incoming missiiles down

the selection for the crews of the destroyer is very tough, the sailors are drilled into every aspect of the ships defence, do u know that in training they actually shut the radar down and give people binoculars and stand on the bridge and engage targets manually? this is not just the ship, the crews are trained from hard lessons learn from actual wartime, lessons from Falkalands which was famous for anti-ship missiles

take this, UK task force, a QE Carrier, 2 x Type 45 DDGs, Astute SSN, brand new replenishment tankers, Type 26 FFG, V22 and F35

then multiply that by two!! anyone want to match that?

dont me wrong i think Type 052C is a great destroyer, but that doesnt mean you have put the Type 45 down like that
 

i.e.

Senior Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

T45 and Horizon is like a Tiger Tank.

052C is like a T34.

PLAN is looking at having 10 more 051 Ludas to replace. so an expensive gold plated ship does not do well.

T45 and Horizon is so good Europeans can only afford 2-4 of them per country.

===

another thing I don;t get.

The whole blow up with T45 and Horizon does not make any sense.

those two (three if count Italians Version) requirements are so similar but they just wasted billions that they don;t have because minor differences in requirements.

they could afford more shiops thus more over all capability if they could have compropmised. and each of them countries is sized like a province in china.

This is one thing I do not ever get is why does europe does this to its defense procurement.

They spend so much but get so little back.
 
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jobjed

Captain
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

T45 and Horizon is like a Tiger Tank.

052C is like a T34.

PLAN is looking at having 10 more 051 Ludas to replace. so an expensive gold plated ship does not do well.

T45 and Horizon is so good Europeans can only afford 2-4 of them per country.

===

another thing I don;t get.

The whole blow up with T45 and Horizon does not make any sense.

those two (three if count Italians Version) requirements are so similar but they just wasted billions that they don;t have because minor differences in requirements.

they could afford more shiops thus more over all capability if they could have compropmised. and each of them countries is sized like a province in china.

This is one thing I do not ever get is why does europe does this to its defense procurement.

They spend so much but get so little back.

Red tape. Western society is based on the democratic model so everyone has to be happy including the politicians, the civilians, the shipbuilders, the subcontractors, the R&D firms etc. Too many complicated criterias to get anything commissioned these days, they'll need a war to get bureaucratic regulations relaxed. In order to leave everyone happy, lots of wasted money are used up by unnecessary designs and policies.

Good point there saying the European countries are sizes of Chinese provinces lol, unfortunately, European countries all have egos and nationalism so to get them to abandon all that and cooperate together is somewhat hard. England and France has been rivals for the past millenia and I don't think it will end anytime soon.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Red tape. Western society is based on the democratic model so everyone has to be happy including the politicians, the civilians, the shipbuilders, the subcontractors, the R&D firms etc. Too many complicated criterias to get anything commissioned these days, they'll need a war to get bureaucratic regulations relaxed. In order to leave everyone happy, lots of wasted money are used up by unnecessary designs and policies.

Good point there saying the European countries are sizes of Chinese provinces lol, unfortunately, European countries all have egos and nationalism so to get them to abandon all that and cooperate together is somewhat hard. England and France has been rivals for the past millenia and I don't think it will end anytime soon.

The whole point of European defense industrial integration is that thery have long realized that non-of them individuall have the resources to maitain the whole range of defense technology capability.
so they should pool resources and partner up.

they missed the whole point on horizon. Britain wanted SAMPSON. for what cost? at a 1 billion Lbs a ship??

would have been way CHEAPER and get more ships out of the price paid, if they went with a local version of Areligh Burke class.

I mean... SPain which had a way smaller budget and smaller navy, arguablly got a better deal with its F100 Bazan class than France Britain Italy did on its Horizon.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

..............

how well will it pit against Type 052C in all assets of warfare? well its very hard to say, but as i said right at the start, in terms of air defence, nothing comes close to Type 45 Daring Class, this ship can see for hundreds of kilometres in land, sea and air, defend itself, a convoy and a landmark ALL at the same time

I have to disagree with you there asif.....
while there is no doubt the Daring has awesome AAW capabilities, I wouldn;t necessarily call it 'nothing come close'. I think the Burke Flight 11a with BMD capabilities and the King Sejong, KDX II and Atago are certainly no slouch either when it comes to anti air warfare. All of these ships have the Aegis Baseline 7 Phase 1/2 improvements with enhanced anti air detection capabilities and superior track and detect in a high jamming environment.
Also haven;t we discussed this before??? This topic seem very familiar to me!
 
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MwRYum

Major
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Guys, better leave Europe and back on topic, my sensor says the fat pilot is inbound...
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I dont think so at all. In fact, if they got all eight off at once, and had them programmed to come in from several different points on the compass, I believe a single Type 45 would shoot them all down. If not, then the math is easy on how to get through to the Carrier. Two 45s? shoot sixteen at them and then the door is open to the carrier. If eight get a Type 45, then the Type 45 need to be redesigned.

Fact is, it's not just the anti-air missile, though I think in this case they would suffice. It is also the ECM which countries like the UK and US have worked decades on very realistic exercises to develop and they will account for some of the missiles going errant. I believe the US and UK have quite bit more experience and therefore probably are better at ECM too.

As I have said, the Type 52C is a good vessel. A HUGE step forward by the PLAN. But to comapre them to Type 45s or AEGIS vessels is still too early. The PLAN has worked with such systems only a very few short years while these other countries, again, have spent decades developing and honing them. I would expect it will be another 10 years or so before the PLAN reaches parity with what the US and UK have now. But by then, remember those countries will have also moved forward.

Interesting times, and very good that we can discuss the relative merits of both systems in such a way here on the internet.

10 years ago China hardly had any supercomputer, and now what ?, No. 5 and 10, even 2 years ago No 1 slot. Number of Chinese supercomputers is just below the US. 5 years ago the British had the most supercomputer after the US and now ?

Top 500 supercomputers
US : 252
China : 68
Japan : 35
The UK : 25

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My point is, people can learn fast :)
 
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