071 LPD thread

pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Which regard to the whole Taiwan scenario, the bottom line is this: once China achieves air superiority it is game over.
PLA leadership isnt stupid enough to put soldiers on Taiwan soil until they know those soldiers will be adequately supported from the air. So we can assume by the time soldiers land, Taiwan air bases, air defence systems and coastal defences would be significantly softened or destroyed.
As for Taiwan's helicopters and tanks, they'll pretty much be target practice for PLAAF fighters. Apaches and Cobras will not be able to do their jobs when they're being targeted by AAMs.
Which means the burden to defend Taiwan will be left on shoulders of ROC army.

The Taiwan problem is very complex. It is not the same as the American Civil War, which was completely economical instead a political clash. Many would argue over the true causes, but I personally think that the main cause was the taxation and trade issues (I personally think the abolishment of slavery was somewhat a beautifying mask to justify the unification, anyways, not trying to criticize, just expressing a personal thought). In the Taiwan issue, politics play a big role. Let's be honest, being a patriotic Chinese myself and not a anti-communist, I still have to say that the mainland is an authoritarian regime, which is very corrupt and ruthless to its own people. If anyone of you here ever watched TV shows and political commentaries from HongKong and especially Taiwan media, you'll know how critical they are to the mainland government.

Taiwan had long being indoctrinated with anti-communist ideologies. The local political system is sometimes chaotic and laughable, but it is a functioning democracy and the citizens rights are protected. After years and years of media's brainwashing, they began to detest anything to do with mainland's government. I personally find it interesting when watching Taiwan's news, they still use Cold War terms, such as communist troops and CCP. So the Mainland itself has to change, in order to win the favour of the Chinese in Taiwan.

Another factor is the economy and the national image expressed by the mainland. Chinese people are ordinary human beings that are no different from any other cultures. When you have a poor and unliked relative, you probably distance yourself from that relative. On the contrary, if your relative is rich and powerful, then you would probably more or less try to let people know that you have this connection. Up until the early 90s, when people from Taiwan and Hongkong travel abroad, they would usually say where they're from first, then they would say they are Chinese. Let's be honest, China was still poor and backwards at that time compared to the West, and it was not that glorious to tell people that you're Chinese. But beginning in the last few years, more and more Chinese (Chinese in general) would say that they are Chinese, instead telling people first that they are from Hongkong or Taiwan. This is the result of the rise in China's status and influence in the international circle. Therefore, if it's a proud thing to tell people that you're Chinese, then why not do it. So, it is largely on mainland's part to play the game.

The last factor is how the mainland shows itself to Taiwan. Up to 1996, just before the Taiwan Strait missile crisis, an independent poll suggested that more than 80% of the population agree that they are Chinese. But after the crisis, the figure dropped to 30-40%, a historical low. If Mainland shows itself as an aggressive tyrant, then it is hard for it to be liked by the people in Taiwan. The old Chinese saying goes, "得民心者得天下", which literally translates to "the one that wins the hearts of the people would win the world". Over the last two decades, the mainland has done a lot for Taiwan, but these have been physically undermined by the authority in Taiwan. Usually only the bad things are remembered and the good forgotten. I personally think that the mainland should devote more into the media and propaganda aspect of the overall strategy. Let's be honest, we all know that the war in Iraq was mostly economical, and driven by national interest. But because of the influence of American media, even when millions around the world are condemning the invasion, the majority of the world's population still see the invasion as just and righteous, simply because the American media told them so. If the mainland's media does the same thing, then after years of corrosion, unification would be very easy. Otherwise, it would be obvious that if the PLA tries to take over Taiwan at this stage, even if the whole island is occupied and the Americans don't intervene, the local population would still be uprising against the PLA occupation, similar to those conflicts in today's Iraq.

So after all, unification of Taiwan take a lot more than just guns.
 

joshuatree

Captain
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

.... It is not the same as the American Civil War, which was completely economical instead a political clash. Many would argue over the true causes, but I personally think that the main cause was the taxation and trade issues .....

Negative, the issue was state's rights.
 

no_name

Colonel
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I personally think the overall strength of the PLA around Taiwan Strait region may although be superior, but definitely not overpowering. Since Ma Ying-Jeoh became president of ROC, the conscription law was changed in favour of contracted personnel instead of forceful conscription. This would greatly improve the quality of the combatants. Another thing to keep in mind is that although the PLAs overall number is skyhigh, but the actual troops deployed around the Taiwan strait is no that great. Even if those troops are stationed in the region, the actual numbers that can be deployed across the strait is still very few. Not to also mention the logistics behind the whole operation and the lifting ability needed for the massive troops. Unless the PLAs airlifting ability is as powerful as the American, it would be impossible to unify Taiwan.

Army is just not that attractive in a country with increasingly higher living standard. The ROC army is down to below two houndred thousands and in the future may even approach the lower end of the single hundred thousands.

A single military region of the PLA is probably alot larger than the whole Taiwan armed forces. Also in the unfortunate event of a conflict over taiwan I think PLA's airborne infantry arm will have a very important role. The drops during sichuan earthquake also gave them a valuable experience. Warzone is usually like a disaster area anyway.

Not saying that the PLA is capitalising on a tragic earthquake but they obviously saw two birds with their stone.

Infact compare the way china and japan handled their disasters I say PLA is even more foreward looking and bold than the JSDF. JSDF looks more modern because of their gears.
 
Last edited:

no_name

Colonel
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

The Taiwan problem is very complex. It is not the same as the American Civil War, which was completely economical instead a political clash. Many would argue over the true causes, but I personally think that the main cause was the taxation and trade issues (I personally think the abolishment of slavery was somewhat a beautifying mask to justify the unification, anyways, not trying to criticize, just expressing a personal thought). In the Taiwan issue, politics play a big role. Let's be honest, being a patriotic Chinese myself and not a anti-communist, I still have to say that the mainland is an authoritarian regime, which is very corrupt and ruthless to its own people. If anyone of you here ever watched TV shows and political commentaries from HongKong and especially Taiwan media, you'll know how critical they are to the mainland government.

Taiwan had long being indoctrinated with anti-communist ideologies. The local political system is sometimes chaotic and laughable, but it is a functioning democracy and the citizens rights are protected. After years and years of media's brainwashing, they began to detest anything to do with mainland's government. I personally find it interesting when watching Taiwan's news, they still use Cold War terms, such as communist troops and CCP. So the Mainland itself has to change, in order to win the favour of the Chinese in Taiwan.

Another factor is the economy and the national image expressed by the mainland. Chinese people are ordinary human beings that are no different from any other cultures. When you have a poor and unliked relative, you probably distance yourself from that relative. On the contrary, if your relative is rich and powerful, then you would probably more or less try to let people know that you have this connection. Up until the early 90s, when people from Taiwan and Hongkong travel abroad, they would usually say where they're from first, then they would say they are Chinese. Let's be honest, China was still poor and backwards at that time compared to the West, and it was not that glorious to tell people that you're Chinese. But beginning in the last few years, more and more Chinese (Chinese in general) would say that they are Chinese, instead telling people first that they are from Hongkong or Taiwan. This is the result of the rise in China's status and influence in the international circle. Therefore, if it's a proud thing to tell people that you're Chinese, then why not do it. So, it is largely on mainland's part to play the game.

The last factor is how the mainland shows itself to Taiwan. Up to 1996, just before the Taiwan Strait missile crisis, an independent poll suggested that more than 80% of the population agree that they are Chinese. But after the crisis, the figure dropped to 30-40%, a historical low. If Mainland shows itself as an aggressive tyrant, then it is hard for it to be liked by the people in Taiwan. The old Chinese saying goes, "得民心者得天下", which literally translates to "the one that wins the hearts of the people would win the world". Over the last two decades, the mainland has done a lot for Taiwan, but these have been physically undermined by the authority in Taiwan. Usually only the bad things are remembered and the good forgotten. I personally think that the mainland should devote more into the media and propaganda aspect of the overall strategy. Let's be honest, we all know that the war in Iraq was mostly economical, and driven by national interest. But because of the influence of American media, even when millions around the world are condemning the invasion, the majority of the world's population still see the invasion as just and righteous, simply because the American media told them so. If the mainland's media does the same thing, then after years of corrosion, unification would be very easy. Otherwise, it would be obvious that if the PLA tries to take over Taiwan at this stage, even if the whole island is occupied and the Americans don't intervene, the local population would still be uprising against the PLA occupation, similar to those conflicts in today's Iraq.

So after all, unification of Taiwan take a lot more than just guns.

All good points.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

The Type 071 LPD means alot more than just a ship for China, its a 20,000 ton masterpiece fully made in China

India cant make such ships as of yet so for China this is national prestige

secondly China needs experience with helicopter operations out at sea, operating helos from ships is a learning curve, a learning curve which China needs alot of since they are new to the game

just like the Type52 destroyer it was a few years before the next one was made as they were tinkering out the bugs with 1st one and utilizing it to its fully capability before making a 2nd one, same goes here

2 Type071 LPDs will give China massive experience which will be vital for applications on a LHD and I guess that a Helicopter Carrier is on the cards for next construction which will take Chinas own home made medium and heavy lift helos

also making a large 20,000 LPD will also give China the capability to make a 20,000 LHD or even 25,000 or 30,000 ton helo carrier, alot of the subsystems on the LPD will also go on the LHD, thus making the transition to a LHD much easier

the Type071 can be used as a command and control centre as well as a transport ship, its a cornerstone of bluewater navy, not nessacary for Taiwan scenario, also its used for logistics so its vital that China makes more Type071 LPD
 
Last edited:

kroko

Senior Member
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

The Type 071 LPD means alot more than just a ship for China, its a 20,000 ton masterpiece fully made in China

India cant make such ships as of yet so for China this is national prestige

type 071 propulsion is not made in china

and india can build aircraft carriers, a capability that china so far hasnt show. If india can make AC, then they can make something like type 071.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

type 071 propulsion is not made in china

Isn't it? where is it from then? (nvm, just searched it up. By Semt apparently...)
Even so it's not false to call it fully indigenous. I mean you would call the gripen a fully indigenous effort by the swedes though it uses American engines... Or at least I would.

and india can build aircraft carriers, a capability that china so far hasnt show. If india can make AC, then they can make something like type 071.

I do not want to get into a versus discussion, but India has started building a carrier, which is different to being able to. Using your statement we can say that china can build carriers because the first pair have already supposedly started construction. So the only fair comparison you can make is to see what they have already built and put into service.

:)
 
Last edited:

pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

type 071 propulsion is not made in china

and india can build aircraft carriers, a capability that china so far hasnt show. If india can make AC, then they can make something like type 071.

Tha's not true. India cannot manufacture aircraft carriers. If you notice the news coming out of india for the past 10 years, you'll notice a lot of them are just purely bullshit. India make a lot of empty claims. They can't even build a decent 3rd generation fighter jet nor a decent 3rd generation main battle tank. Even if India somehow builts a carrier, majority of the subsystems would be imported, including the steel for the flightdeck. There would be nothing Indian on the ship, maybe except for few negligible parts.
Unlike India, China can produce a lot of the things they import, especially the technologically challengine jet engines. They just don't use those engines because of the reliability and especially the high cost. I know this sounds ironic. Not sure any of you remember what I posted few months ago about the jet engine industry in China. Jet engines, essentially the same thing as ship engines, are almost purely consisted of blades. Those blades are very hard to manufacture and have a very high failure rates during manucfacturing process. This is heavily depended on experience. The Chinese have to make maybe 200-300 blades to ensure at least 100 of them meet the standard, wheras the Americans only have to make maybe 150 of them. This makes the Chinese engines very expensive.
On the contrary, the Indians can't even design the engines, not mentioning making them.
India is indeed making big strides over last 10 years, but they are still more talking then progressing. Even until now, the so called biggets air show in Asia is still a shopping trip for the Indian Air Force, consisting of purely foreign weapons expecting the Indians to buy, rather than showcasing India's indigneous products.
 
Top