J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

[yfan]

Here is your answer

View attachment 4989

No, not that one.
The above one is rumored FC-1 upgrade.
It's this one
--ht-tp://image.club.china.com/twhb/272425507/2011/1/14/1295006606637_2238.jpg

 

[Duran]

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So, in the end, it is all down to economic game. The current administration are still agonizing over whether to purchase a few more F-22s, while the whole american economy is shaky to say the least. To develop anti-stealth and brag about it is basically as dumb as you can get, its basically throwing away 40 years of R&D and flush $600 billion down the toilet.
....

Seriously, if China can continue to do these cost effective prototype projects and wait for american to defeat themselves, it won't be long to see America go completely bankrupt.

Not quite sure about the figures elaborated, yet your points are very impressive. I think the same situation can applied to ASBM vs. CVBG tactics.

 

[Blitzo]

Erm, no. As far as I understand, the trick is that the F-15 in the back functions as a spotting decoy. With its radar blaring and high RCS, the J-20 will quickly detect the F-15, then it will break stealth by opening its carriage bays to launch BVR missiles versus the F-15. Then, the F-22 spots the J-20 as it loses stealth by firing weapons, and the F-22 launches WVR or SRAAMs at the J-20. The J-20 can attempt to respond from there, but the F-22 has gotten the first shot off, and with all-aspect stealth, it can shoot and scoot and expect to evade WVR missiles, whereas the J-20 will likely won't be able to break the missile lock.

What if it's upgraded flankers which fire at the F-15s instead, directed in by AWACS? And the opening of the weapon bays should only be for a split second -- I'm not sure if that's enough to get a radar lock. (And why won't J-20 be able to break missile lock while the F-22 can -- espicially if it's a SRAAM; both AIM-9X and the PL-10 have strong IRCCM

The AWACS approach won't work; the AWACS is suicide because the AWACS vessel has a very large RCS and can be knocked down by AWACS killers.

Hmm do the US have a dedicated AWACS killer missile? Or are you talking about F-22s going up close to take them out -- in which case I say the organic sam coverage will be necessary. Maybe fighter escort too.

It's really a hard thing to counter; if the Chinese counter with J-11Bs with AESA in the back as their own decoys; the F-22s can just snipe them off with BVR and get away with it due to their all-aspect stealth allowing them to escape WVR screens from the J-20s.

Well F-22s won't need to escape WVR screens because they're firing BVR missiles...
The reverse can be said for the F-22/F-15 combo -- J-20s and J-11Bs BVR the F-15s while the F-22s and J-20s engage in WVR combat, and the F-22 won't be able to just shoot and scoot because it's all aspect stealth still won't be capable of hiding it's significant IR signature (even with IR LO-ing)

 

[airsuperiority]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think this is the dumbest idea american can think of.
There was a saying, "people, who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

Allow me to articulate my points :

Program cost of stealth projects :
F-117 $7 billion
B-2 $44.75 billion
F-22 $65 billion
F-35 $49.3 billion
Sub total : $166.05 billion


Procurement Cost of Stealth Projects :
F-117 $7.17 billion
B-2 $15.4 billion
F-22 $25.2 billion (168 so far as of October 2010 with 187 planned)
F-35 $382 billion
Sub total : $429.77 billion

Total : $595.82 billion

So, $595.82 billion, NOT INCLUDING THE COSTLY MAINTENANCE COST EVERY YEAR. (That rolls under other accounting headings.


So, now American is set out to proof to everyone that stealth can easily be defeated by using conventional 4th generation fighters. Guess what, Russia and China are HAPPY to see that. Why? Because it shows them it is very possible and practical to develop their own anti-stealth capabilities on their 4th generation fighters, at minimal cost too! And with American invested HEAVILY in their stealth programs - F117, B-2, F-22, and now F-35, they have sunk $600 billion in these programs (again, not including maintenance cost and infrastructures).


That's quite a motivation for the Chinese and Russian now that American proof it is highly viable and cost effective to develop such tech don't you think?


That's $600 billion dollars down the drain if Russia and China develops anti-stealth radars to fit in their 4th generation aircrafts. While China and Russia spent money developing on their first stealth aircraft, they haven't sunk 1/1000 amount into it compare to the American. They can always stop the T-50 / J-20 development if the anti-stealth radar proves highly effective against the stealth aircraft.

So, in the end, it is all down to economic game. The current administration are still agonizing over whether to purchase a few more F-22s, while the whole american economy is shaky to say the least. To develop anti-stealth and brag about it is basically as dumb as you can get, its basically throwing away 40 years of R&D and flush $600 billion down the toilet.

A single J-20 project that cost no more than few hundred million dollars (probably not even that) cancel out over $600 billion american assets.

Seriously, if China can continue to do these cost effective prototype projects and wait for american to defeat themselves, it won't be long to see America go completely bankrupt.

there had always been rumors(and probably not a surprise if china has such a project a long time) of antistealth technology. no one can ever really know if those are just gossips about its progress status(some claimed it's readied), but we can be sure china's been developing one since the time they knew of the american stealth fighters. (since you can't count on one approach and not look into other ways to combat the same thing, as there are always odds the first project will fail), so it won't be surprising if china comes up with an anti-stealth tech before the americans do.

 

[Blitzo]

This is a classic evolving baiting game.
So, basically, the Chinese are at disadvantage due to having shorter range BVR missile to counter the american all aspect stealth F-22 which can get closer to the J-20 without being detected while the J-20 is targeting the F-15 at BVR range.

By the time J-20 is combat ready I imagine missiles like PL-12D and PL-21 should be well and ready too, which shouldn't have too much a range disprecancy between the latest AMRAAMs.

 

[Red Moon]

1. Don't keep this tone with the mods. At least not in public.
2. 99% of the threads in this forum are related to the CHINESE military. Hence, in this case any celebration/bashing of the J-20 is to some degree acceptable. Bashing the US in any form is not, as it is not as relevant. Find some threads about US technology and go there.

@Maggern: I agree with point 1, but i think you're somewhat off with point 2. Don't think about this legalistically. What you suggest may cause even bigger disruption. The thread, anyway, was not closed because of this particular "stealing" comment, though in fact, I don't remember... it was too many pages back. You see, for example, IronsightSniper's comment caused pages of discussion that was a) not related to the J-20, and b) at least partially a repeat of stuff that has been discussed many times before. You advocate others doing this in an "American" thread? I agree that people should watch their language, but in fact "anti-american" opinions, at least on this thread, seem to cause relatively little disruption to the discussion.

I am not advocating that we allow 'country-bashing', but I think whatever "liberality" is applied in this should go in the opposite direction that you advocate.

 

[Blitzo]

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Stealthy Chinese J-20 Vulnerable

I'm all for stating the weaknesses of a platform, but this aviation week article is just sooo... desperate.

there had always been rumors(and probably not a surprise if china has such a project a long time) of antistealth technology. no one can ever really know if those are just gossips about its progress status(some claimed it's readied), but we can be sure china's been developing one since the time they knew of the american stealth fighters. (since you can't count on one approach and not look into other ways to combat the same thing, as there are always odds the first project will fail), so it won't be surprising if china comes up with an anti-stealth tech before the americans do.

I don't think anti stealth technology is like a magic platform, it's just an incremental improvement over current systems. the aviation week article Kyli posted mentions L band AESA radar as being good at long range against stealthy targets. I believe carlo kopp says something similar in one of his articles about J-20.
KJ-2000 and KJ-200 are both supposedly L band and the PLAAF will only be getting more of them so I think they're well on their way -- counter stealth is something the PLAAF would've invested a substantial amount of money in.

 

[Martian]

J-20 will accelerate China's anti-stealth technology

I remember that a group of European researchers had wanted to test their anti-stealth technology on an airfield at an European air show, where a B-2 Spirit was scheduled to attend and come in for a landing. After hearing about the news, the American military canceled the participation of the B-2 at the air show.

The implication is that it is difficult to make progress in anti-stealth technology if you don't have a real-world stealth aircraft to test your theories. Now that China has a flying stealth fighter, Chinese scientists can probe it for its weaknesses. The knowledge that is gained in detecting the J-20 will be applicable to the F-22 Raptor.

 

[Red Moon]

Re: China's J-20 stealth fighter signifies war of attrition

Thank you to "Challenge" for clarifying the RAM coating on the gold-tinted cockpit canopy for the J-10B. I'm thinking of making a new high-definition video on the J-20 to incorporate the latest information.

Just one thing, Martian, before you go on. The wall behind the canopy is also "gold tinted". Do we have a picture of this where the background is not yellow?

 

[Blitzo]

Re: J-20 will accelerate China's anti-stealth technology

I remember that a group of European researchers had wanted to test their anti-stealth technology at an European air show, where a B-2 Spirit was scheduled to attend. After hearing about the news, the American military canceled the participation of the B-2 at the air show.

The implication is that it is difficult to make progress in anti-stealth technology if you don't have a real-world stealth fighter to test your theories. Now that China has a flying stealth fighter, Chinese scientists can probe it for its weaknesses. The knowledge that is gained in detecting the J-20 will be applicable to the F-22 Raptor.

I can't say I agree with that -- the US didn't want the B-2 to attend simply because they didn't want to potentially leak sensitive RCS data.
The weaknesses they find in the J-20 may be very different to the ones in the F-22 -- I think the safest and route most taken to anti stealth at the moment is just being able to detect small RCS targets, with higher resolution radars (again, I'm out of my depth here a little) -- so I you don't realy need your own stealth platform to make anti stealth. I assume you'd only need to know the principles.

The Russians have been fielding some levels of anti stealth technology since the Cold War, and China has as well, and both only recently flew their stealth fighters.

I remain convinced that anti stealth is not going to be a single leap, but rather an incremental evolution of current systems from radar to long ranged EO systems. We know china's invested quite a bit in the former, but the latter has yet to yield results. the IRSTs on J-11B and J-10B, as well as the diamonds on the side of the J-20s nose are encouraging, however.