J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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KYli

Brigadier
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China’s J-20 transforms military

Chengdu, China-J20 fighter
Chengdu, China-J20 fighter

While China is strutting out new weapon systems and Russia is developing new plans, the US is canceling planes because it cannot afford to invest in newer technology.

Robbin Laird writing for the second Line of Defense brilliantly describes the US shackles “The Afghan engagement is eating up our military resources, which are no longer available to fund air and naval power transition. And even more significant is the instinct to invest in the past rather than future. The notion of funding 4th generation aircraft with the new generation already here in the F-22 and close at hand in the F-35 is truly amazing. Funding a next generation jammer when the F-35 carries in its combat systems significantly greater capability is equally amazing.

The Chinese are clearly posing a threat to our way of doing air operations. We need to shift to a new concept of air operations leveraging the new aircraft and capabilities, and to build forward from this point.”

Australian defense analysts have gone berserk about the J-20. Japan is panicking, and India is fretting it. Not often is it in the history of aviation that a plane creates such a buzz that it threatens to transform the status quo and change the military balance. The J-20 and the Chinese Space Plan did just that. Neither Japan, nor any of the European powers have the capcity to transform their stealth research into production. Russia‘s T-50 comes the closest. Pakistan is including stealth in the later version of its J-17 17. Bharat wants to buy stealth from Russia at a colossal cost, but that is simply a purchase of some of Russia’s PAKFA fighters dubbed as FGFAs.

The People Daily reports that “the Chinese J-20 stealth stealth fighter jet (R) is seen during a test flight in Chengdu, southwest China on Jan. 7, 2011. Guan Youfei, deputy director of Foreign Affairs Office of the Defense Ministry, said Tuesday that China’s military hardware development is not aimed at any other country while responding to a question on the reported test flight of J-20 stealth fighter jet.” (
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“Japan should buy a fleet of F-35 stealth jet fighters to boost its air force”, a panicked US Defence Secretary, Robert Gates exclaimed, a day after China unveiled its own version of the radar-dodging aircraft.

In an article in the Sydney Morning Herald one defense analyst Dan Oakes uses hyperbole to say that “the shock unveiling of a Chinese stealth fighter plane has changed the power balance in Asia and means Australia must rethink its regional strategy, an Australian analyst has said.”

Tai Ming Cheung is an associate research scientist at the University of California Institute on Global Conflict and Cooperation in San Diego. His book, Fortifying China, examines the transformation and workings of the Chinese defense economy. Ming writing for the Wall Street Journal says “The stealthy online unveiling of China’s next-generation fighter aircraft, dubbed the J-20, represents an important marker in the accelerating development of China’s defense science, technology, and innovation capabilities. Although it will likely take another five-to-ten years before the aircraft is ready for serial production and operational service, its unofficial public debut serves notice of China’s intent to become a world-class military power within the next decade.”

Dan Oakes and Ming are not the only ones who think the world of the J-20. Peter Goon, a veteran critic of the F-35 joint strike fighter, and co-founder of the Air Power Australia think-tank, says “the Chinese J-20 is far superior to the American fighter and we must immediately adapt to the new status quo.” He added that US had been ”caught flat-footed” by the J-20. Goon thinks that J-20 is far superior to the JSF, and even to America’s top-of-the-range F-22 ”Raptor” jet. ”It is basically a lot more stealthy than the JSF, will fly faster and higher, be more agile and because it’s a much bigger aircraft it can carry more weapons,” he said. ”This thing has been designed to compete with and defeat the F-22. They haven’t even bothered with the JSF, and why would you?’

China has a string of pearls strategy which extends from Gwader, to Humbolta, to Chattagong to ports in Burma and Thailand. Mr Goon said the J-20 had been designed to advance China’s ”second island chain” strategy, which promotes the protection of Chinese trade routes within an area bordered in the east by Pacific islands such as the Marianas, Guam and the Caroline Islands, all the way to the eastern end of the Indonesian archipelago. In other words, most of south-east Asia.”

It could have been a coincident, but many think not. The Chinese leaked the information about the J-20 on the day that the US Defense Secretary, Robert Gates, arrived in Beijing for defense talks. It was obvious that the Chinese had been testing the plane for a while. The pictures were revealed and leaked in front of the American who had said that China was a decade away from getting stealth technology. To top t all, the Chinese then leaked pictures about their Space Plane too. Many think that the PLA was thumbing its nose at Bob Gates.

The US has canceled the F-35 and stopped production of the F-22 Fighters. Many in Australian oppose these cuts. One of the priorities in the federal government’s 2009 Defence white paper was the need for Australia to achieve and maintain air combat superiority in the region.

Some analysts are using the J-20 to begin the resale of the J-35. Lockheed Martin hinted at a JSF anti-stealth capability in 2009. “The F-35’s avionics include onboard sensors that will enable pilots to strike fixed or moving ground targets in high-threat environments, day or night, in any weather, while simultaneously targeting and eliminating advanced airborne threats,” said Dan Crowley, then-executive vice president and F-35 program general manager.

Northrop Grumman’s lower-frequency, L-band AESA radar on Australia’s Wedgetail airborne early warning and control aircraft is larger and potentially more capable of detecting stealth aircraft at longer ranges.

Ming says “China’s military aviation industry is now a prospective candidate to join an exclusive group of countries able to indigenously develop a stealth aircraft. The only established member of this elite set is the U.S., which has successfully developed and fielded a number of stealth aircraft over the past two decades. Russia is in the early stages of test-flying its first stealthy aircraft, called the T-50.”.

Mr Goon says ”If Defence does not rethink in a timely, objective and coherent way their current plans we should take them out, put them in the stocks and pillory them,” ”If they don’t now redress the situation that’s obvious to everyone else as a result of the J-20 and the T-50, then they’re being delinquent in their responsibilities.”

Dan Oakes says “Air Power Australia has been a loud critic of the government’s decision to order 100 of the joint strike fighters for up to $16 billion, on the basis of cost and capability. The JSF project has been bedevilled by cost blowouts, technical problems and schedule overruns.”

Critics point out to the possibilities that China has. “The Chinese aero-engine sector has yet to begin serial production of its own high-performance turbofan engines such as the WS-10 even though it claims to have mastered development a few years ago. China has had to import Russian engines to equip its mainstay J-10 and J-11 fighter fleet. Of particular relevance for the J-20 program was China’s request to Russia for Type 117S aero-engines during annual defense technology cooperation talks between the two countries last year. These engines are being used on Russia’s T-50 aircraft.” (WSJ, Ming).

Trefor Moss is a freelance journalist who covers Asian politics, in particular defense, security and economic issues. He is a former Asia-Pacific editor for Jane’s Defense Weekly. Trefor Moss writing for the Asia Times Online (AToL) says “The story of the Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter, whose existence was revealed at the turn of the year, is perhaps more remarkable for what it says about the bravura of China’s rulers – and about the West’s reactions – than for what it reveals about the future” . Moss however thinks that the J-20 is technologically inferior to the T-50, F-22 and F-35 and thinks the US reaction to the J-20 is an escuse to revive the JSF and the F-22.

Robbin Laird says t best “The J-20 is built on the top of the global shift in manufacturing capability towards China, a significant investment by China in global commodities and the enhanced presence of China on the world stage are all significant developments. When married to a growing investment in the development and fielding of military capabilities, something globally significant is afoot – of the sort which suggests changing epochs.” We should not be surprised by the J-20 or the Chinese Space planet. These were as inevitable as the Chinease rise to the largest economy in the world and the power that comes with it.
 

gambit

New Member
Actually, the whole concept of "radar stealth" was "stolen" (or copy or plagiarize.. whatever you call it) by American from the Russian.

The original concept / theorem was developed by a Russian mathematician/physicist named Petr Yakovlevich Ufimtsev.

From wiki:
"Petr Yakovlevich Ufimtsev (Russian: Пётр Я́ковлевич Уфи́мцев) (born 1931 in Altai Krai) is a Soviet/Russian physicist and mathematician, considered the seminal force behind modern stealth aircraft technology. In the 1960s he began developing equations for predicting the reflection of electromagnetic waves from simple two-dimensional shapes.

Much of Ufimtsev's work was translated into English, and in the 1970s American Lockheed engineers began to expand upon some of his theories to create the concept of aircraft with reduced radar signatures.[1] Northrop made extensive use of Ufimtsev's work in developing the B-2 bomber."


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So, no, American didn't completely indigneously develop the stealth aircraft. It stole MANY ideas and designs from foreign origins (with foreign help as well - see Noshir Gowadia case). And these are just known facts, there are many more we would not know until the whole project is completely unclassified one day (in maybe 200 years time ;))
Actually...No. The US did not stole anything from the Soviets. Ufimtsev's work was not about RCS reduction. It never was. I have the formal textbook by Ufimtsev. His work was about formalizing the behaviors of impinging EM signals upon a surface. Once that process was completed, Ufimtsev submitted it like normal researchers would. The Soviets, in a monumental blunder, did not deemed his work to be of any military value and allowed it to be published for all to see.

Lockheed and other aircraft manufacturers knew about how radar signals behave on a complex body. The knew about the importance of RCS reduction. The canted vertical stabilators on the SR-71 was of minimal aerodynamic benefits but far more for RCS reduction. But no one in the West formalized those behaviors like Ufimtsev did. So when Lockheed got a hold of Ufimtsev's work, they knew they could design a complex body that could escape detection from %99.999 of the world's radars. Ufimtsev's work was most prominent in the F-117 and progressively less with the B-2. So yes, the US was the first to develop a 'stealth' aircraft.
 

timepass

Brigadier
新加坡联合早报:传中国研发另类第4代战机


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传中国研发另类第4代战机

(2011-01-15 12.45pm)


  (香港讯)香港星岛日报报道,继歼20战机后,中国又研发出另一种名为“雪鹗”的第4代战机;这种战机外型较轻,类似美国与盟国合作的联合攻击战斗机(JSF)F-35。

  报道指出,日前中国中央电视台在一个有关中国发展隐形战机的节目上,背景图片除了歼20外,还有一架从没有曝光的银色战机。

  报道刊登了相关画面,并表示,这架战机的设计和歼20完全不一样,采用三翼面的鸭式布局,固定式垂直翼,菱形发动机喷口,尾翼有中国空军的军徽。

  报道说,有人在网上表示,这可能是沈阳飞机公司研发中的歼15“雪鴞”战机,这种战机类似美国F-35的轻型隐形战机。

  根据网上资料,沈阳飞机公司正在研发的一种先进战机,除了型号(为歼14)不符外,其余与上述报道差不多,譬如也称为“雪鴞”,采用三翼面鸭式布局,体型较轻。

《联合早报网》

according to singapore united news..
AVIC is developing a single engine "F-35 type" aircraft.
like J-20 is uses canard control except it single engine

Here is your answer

20090529124038632.jpg
 

Martian

Senior Member
China's J-20 stealth fighter signifies war of attrition

This is a classic evolving baiting game.
So, basically, the Chinese are at disadvantage due to having shorter range BVR missile to counter the american all aspect stealth F-22 which can get closer to the J-20 without being detected while the J-20 is targeting the F-15 at BVR range.

So what if the Chinese move the J-11B further behind, drawing the F-22 closer to the kill zone of J-20?? Basically this is reverse baiting, but at the same time F-22 could choose NOT to be baited and just not fire, then it will be just a beautiful smash up of F-15 vs J-11B with F-22 and J-20 as bystander (since both would be too afraid to give the other side advantage until its too late).

I believe that the most important consequence from the development of China's J-20 stealth fighter is the heralding of a war of attrition for air superiority. The F-22 Raptor was supposed to be a generation ahead of all fighters. Now, the F-22 will have to fight an aircraft of a comparable generation. The winner may simply be the nation that can field the most stealth fighters in the air.

----------

Thank you to "Challenge" for clarifying the RAM coating on the gold-tinted cockpit canopy for the J-10B. I'm thinking of making a new high-definition video on the J-20 to incorporate the latest information.
 
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Asymptote

Banned Idiot
Looks like the USAF is starting to react to the J-20:



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Basically the whole idea revolves around AESA equipped F-15s being non stealthy bomb trucks (or rather, AMRAAM trucks) our of the firing zone, and they will fire AMRAAMs at opposing J-20s when F-22s get the viable targeting info -- sounds like CEC.

Of course it's too early to judge how well this tactic will work when the J-20's only made it's first flight and this F-15/F-22 (and maybe F-35) combo seems only a proposal at this stage -- but if the PLAAF have AWACS like KJ-2000 and KJ-200 in the field they should be able to detect F-15s at a long range and F-22s at a closer range and move to direct fighters to engage them or avoid the F-15s kill zone altogether.
And J-20s (with supercruise and supermanouverability) should be quite able to outmanouever the AMRAAMs, which sound like they will be fired at near maximum range anyway. And there's also the large flanker force which could very well undergo similar AESA upgrades in the near future -- and the J-20 will supposedly have a larger AESA than the F-22 so there are lots of variables at play.

All the while J-20s would be making similar "ninja jabs" to enemy aerial assets like AWACS and tankers as the F-22s do the same; but PLAAF assets could very well stay in SAM coverage to give some level of protection while being able to perform their duties to an extent.

I'm kinda just rambling here, but it's interesting to see what the USAF will actually do. We're at a point where later in this decade, PLAAF will hopefully start to upgrade all J-10s and Flankers in the inventory with AESAs (the nose domes of the latter are huge, and should be able to hold a larger one than F-15s?), while integrating newer missiles like the PL-10, PL-12C/D, and PL-21.
I believe they have the technology --I think it's a matter of being able to get them all certified and then just churning them out i due speed. We won't be able to see significant numbers of J-20s until ~2018, but by that time they should match the number of F-22s deployed in the pacific at the current time.

We're in for an interesting decade.



You know, the more I think about it, the more I think this is the dumbest idea american can think of.
There was a saying, "people, who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

Allow me to articulate my points :

Program cost of stealth projects :
F-117 $7 billion
B-2 $44.75 billion
F-22 $65 billion
F-35 $49.3 billion
Sub total : $166.05 billion


Procurement Cost of Stealth Projects :
F-117 $7.17 billion
B-2 $15.4 billion
F-22 $25.2 billion (168 so far as of October 2010 with 187 planned)
F-35 $382 billion
Sub total : $429.77 billion

Total : $595.82 billion

So, $595.82 billion, NOT INCLUDING THE COSTLY MAINTENANCE COST EVERY YEAR. (That rolls under other accounting headings.


So, now American is set out to proof to everyone that stealth can easily be defeated by using conventional 4th generation fighters. Guess what, Russia and China are HAPPY to see that. Why? Because it shows them it is very possible and practical to develop their own anti-stealth capabilities on their 4th generation fighters, at minimal cost too! And with American invested HEAVILY in their stealth programs - F117, B-2, F-22, and now F-35, they have sunk $600 billion in these programs (again, not including maintenance cost and infrastructures).


That's quite a motivation for the Chinese and Russian now that American proof it is highly viable and cost effective to develop such tech don't you think?


That's $600 billion dollars down the drain if Russia and China develops anti-stealth radars to fit in their 4th generation aircrafts. While China and Russia spent money developing on their first stealth aircraft, they haven't sunk 1/1000 amount into it compare to the American. They can always stop the T-50 / J-20 development if the anti-stealth radar proves highly effective against the stealth aircraft.

So, in the end, it is all down to economic game. The current administration are still agonizing over whether to purchase a few more F-22s, while the whole american economy is shaky to say the least. To develop anti-stealth and brag about it is basically as dumb as you can get, its basically throwing away 40 years of R&D and flush $600 billion down the toilet.

A single J-20 project that cost no more than few hundred million dollars (probably not even that) cancel out over $600 billion american assets.

Seriously, if China can continue to do these cost effective prototype projects and wait for american to defeat themselves, it won't be long to see America go completely bankrupt.
 
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Maggern

Junior Member
This is a classic evolving baiting game.
So, basically, the Chinese are at disadvantage due to having shorter range BVR missile to counter the american all aspect stealth F-22 which can get closer to the J-20 without being detected while the J-20 is targeting the F-15 at BVR range.

So what if the Chinese move the J-11B further behind, drawing the F-22 closer to the kill zone of J-20?? Basically this is reverse baiting, but at the same time F-22 could choose NOT to be baited and just not fire, then it will be just a beautiful smash up of F-15 vs J-11B with F-22 and J-20 as bystander (since both would be too afraid to give the other side advantage until its too late).

Yeah let's not put too much into this, I don't think the US is trying to debunk stealth. What I'm seeing is the US losing its monopoly and having to find SOME way of actually fighting stealth rather than just take advantage of it. As mentioned above, the tactic works both ways. If there is an F-15 flying around transmitting like hell, why would the Chinese send their best fighter after it? Wouldn't they rather send some 4th gen fighters after it and keep the J-20 behind to continue looking for F-22s? And of course the J-20 could also fly around waiting for an F-22 to pick off a J-11 or something and then respond in kind.

What I find interesting in this new tactic is that there is no attempt to actually combat stealth. Rather what they want is for the stealth aircraft to compromise its stealth by aggravating it. I think this is pretty much what most powers have been thinking when trying to figure out how to combat US stealth in the past (the most famous practical outcome of this being the stealth plane shot down over the Balkans when it had its bomb bay open).
 

gambit

New Member
Looks like the USAF is starting to react to the J-20:



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I would not place too much stock in that article. The author is implying that the USAF is reacting to the J-20 by upgrading the F-15 with new radars that could detect 'stealth'. He does not know what he is talking about. If we can react to a potential threat in several weeks with a new countermeasure, why not build and install that capability to start?

Further...

The magic is all in the Eagle’s nose. Compared to the angular, stealthy F-22, the totally non-stealth F-15 has a more capacious nosecone that can carry a larger radar. The larger the radar, the more likely it is to detect the J-20, despite that plane’s potentially very small frontal radar cross-section.
The author is implying that all this time, the F-15 has been equipped with an antenna smaller that it could have been. Absurd. The fact that antenna/array dimensions affect radar effective range and target resolutions is not new. All fighters have been equipped with antennas as large as its radome could allow. This upgrade is in no way a guarantee that an F-117, let alone an F-22, could be detected.
 

gambit

New Member
Yeah let's not put too much into this, I don't think the US is trying to debunk stealth. What I'm seeing is the US losing its monopoly and having to find SOME way of actually fighting stealth rather than just take advantage of it. As mentioned above, the tactic works both ways. If there is an F-15 flying around transmitting like hell, why would the Chinese send their best fighter after it? Wouldn't they rather send some 4th gen fighters after it and keep the J-20 behind to continue looking for F-22s? And of course the J-20 could also fly around waiting for an F-22 to pick off a J-11 or something and then respond in kind.

What I find interesting in this new tactic is that there is no attempt to actually combat stealth. Rather what they want is for the stealth aircraft to compromise its stealth by aggravating it. I think this is pretty much what most powers have been thinking when trying to figure out how to combat US stealth in the past (the most famous practical outcome of this being the stealth plane shot down over the Balkans when it had its bomb bay open).
If that is true, then there should have been more F-117 shot down instead of just one. And there were B-2s from CONUS as well with their larger bombay doors. Why no B-2 lost?
 

Maggern

Junior Member
If that is true, then there should have been more F-117 shot down instead of just one. And there were B-2s from CONUS as well with their larger bombay doors. Why no B-2 lost?

Well of course a lot of factors play in. But the fact is that one of the most important defensive features of that plane, its stealth, was compromised by having its bomb bay open. Although one can blaim bad luck for the shootdown, stealth could have saved it.
 

Anton Gregori

New Member
Re: China's J-20 stealth fighter signifies war of attrition

I believe that the most important consequence from the development of China's J-20 stealth fighter is the heralding of a war of attrition for air superiority. The F-22 Raptor was supposed to be a generation ahead of all fighters. Now, the F-22 will have to fight an aircraft of a comparable generation. The winner may simply be the nation that can field the most stealth fighters in the air.

It's more complicated than that. During the life of the J-20, it's still likely that any potential conflict with the U.S. will take place near mainland China (even with a few carriers, it will be a while before China tries to project power across the globe the way the U.S. does). Even J-7s are likely to be in the air if tensions ever escalate to that point. There are also SAMs to contend with.

So imagine a whole bunch of lesser Chinese aircraft in the air - some pretty good, but not stealthy, some pretty ancient - and a few J-20 flying high, keeping a low profile.

So the question is, can the F-22 get off its missiles without any of the planes or ships around - even the J-20s that it can't see - being close enough to get a good shot off. Most of the time they probably can, but China doesn't need to get lucky very often for the U.S. force to be seriously degraded. Trading five J-11 or 10 J-7s for each F-22 isn't such a bad deal.

Of course this calculus is true even without the J-20, but having a couple of hundred stealthy fighters waiting to get off the perfect shot improves the odds for China a lot.
 
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