China's Space Program Thread II

Blitzo

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Yes, that's why I quoted the unreasonable part alone for my response.

The rest of your reply doesn't only address the unreasonable part of his reply, it is more expansive and includes "So I guarantee that as long as the CCP deems it a priority, it will happen, because everything else has been achieved by that pattern".

If you agree with the rest of his post that is reasonable (i.e. to be cautious and not assume outcomes are guaranteed) then you wouldn't have written that.



A more normal response would be something like "it is correct that being cautious is wise and to not assume outcomes are guaranteed, however comparing PRC predictions in context of their track record with that or India are also excessive in the other direction".
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
The rest of your reply doesn't only address the unreasonable part of his reply, it is more expansive and includes "So I guarantee that as long as the CCP deems it a priority, it will happen, because everything else has been achieved by that pattern".

If you agree with the rest of his post that is reasonable (i.e. to be cautious and not assume outcomes are guaranteed) then you wouldn't have written that.

A more normal response would be something like "it is correct that being cautious is wise and to not assume outcomes are guaranteed, however comparing PRC predictions in context of their track record with that or India are also excessive in the other direction".
It's reasonable to be cautious but also reasonable to judge by track record and make that guarantee. I could understand either stance and would have left it alone but him making it sound like nobody can speak positively of one's own nation/negatively against a competitor or they'd be an Indian just because Indians did it from the most comically inappropriate position makes me wanna go my way.
 

Blitzo

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It's reasonable to be cautious but also reasonable to judge by track record and make that guarantee. I could understand either stance and would have left it alone but him making it sound like nobody can speak positively of one's own nation/negatively against a competitor or they'd be an Indian just because Indians did it from the most comically inappropriate position makes me wanna go my way.

Responding to an unreasonable post with another unreasonable response just creates an unforced error that can be exploited.

For the PRC, it is especially important because the competition with the US and/or SpaceX may well now exist on a running clock where timeline/speed is a factor, and the PRC space program in various domains have seen their own elements of delays in modern history. If the matter being debated is "will the PRC catch up with US/SpaceX in launch cadence/quantity/tonnage" -- then imo not only is it logically correct to say it is "not guaranteed," but imo it is a vital part of the conversation to recognize it is "not guaranteed" and isn't something that should just be casually mentioned as if it's going to happen.

Pride or nationalism or whatever should have no place in that calculus ----- if anything being entirely unemotive is not just a useful trait, but it should be the ticket of entry.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Responding to an unreasonable post with another unreasonable response just creates an unforced error that can be exploited.
We both understand that it's unreasonable for him to compare faith in China with Indian chest-thumping. I think it's reasonable to be cautious but also reasonable to go by track record. To guarantee that China can catch up (and surpass) the US in space launch if it is deemed necessary by China is reasonable because China has mastered more difficult technologies and it is moving faster than then US in every technology that I can think of.
For the PRC, it is especially important because the competition with the US and/or SpaceX may well now exist on a running clock where timeline/speed is a factor, and the PRC space program in various domains have seen their own elements of delays in modern history. If the matter being debated is "will the PRC catch up with US/SpaceX in launch cadence/quantity/tonnage" -- then imo not only is it logically correct to say it is "not guaranteed," but imo it is a vital part of the conversation to recognize it is "not guaranteed" and isn't something that should just be casually mentioned as if it's going to happen.
That's not really the full matter debated. I don't see China making a concentrated push or effort like in lithography for this. China may deem what we have as sufficient and not choose to invest to overtake the US in this field. However, as I said before, I am fully confident (although I can understand a position of caution) that if the CCP deems this as a national priority, we can catch up to and overtake the US.
Pride or nationalism or whatever should have no place in that calculus
But track records do.
----- if anything being entirely unemotive is not just a useful trait, but it should be the ticket of entry.
No one is entirely unemotive but I pointed out that it is at least as reasonable to assume success by track record as it is to be cautious simply because what isn't done always has a possibility of remaining undone, depending on the doer's ability and will. What is entirely unreasonable is to compare the faith that China has earned through its track record of performance with unsupported Indian troll chest thumping.
 

Blitzo

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We both understand that it's unreasonable for him to compare faith in China with Indian chest-thumping. I think it's reasonable to be cautious but also reasonable to go by track record. To guarantee that China can catch up (and surpass) the US in space launch if it is deemed necessary by China is reasonable because China has mastered more difficult technologies and it is moving faster than then US in every technology that I can think of.

That's not really the full matter debated. I don't see China making a concentrated push or effort like in lithography for this. China may deem what we have as sufficient and not choose to invest to overtake the US in this field. However, as I said before, I am fully confident (although I can understand a position of caution) that if the CCP deems this as a national priority, we can catch up to and overtake the US.

Actually what I wrote was the actual full matter being debated. To quote the post that you replied to:

.... as if Chinas future success in catching up to spacex/starlink is a given. I never take anything for granted , I often prefer to be more cautious actually, since nobody is guaranteed about the future .

I assume that most people would interpret "future success in catching up to spacex/starlink" is in context of whatever timespan exists to close the gap in a way that does not cause an irreversible or difficult to reverse long term trend -- keep in mind SpaceX itself and Starlink et al is a moving target, they are not staying still.




But track records do.

No one is entirely unemotive but I pointed out that it is at least as reasonable to assume success by track record as it is to be cautious simply because what isn't done always has a possibility of remaining undone, depending on the doer's ability and will. What is entirely unreasonable is to compare the faith that China has earned through its track record of performance with unsupported Indian troll chest thumping.

It's reasonable to say that China has a chance to close the gap and/or catch up with SpaceX in capability.

It is not reasonable to say that China is guaranteed to do catch up. If you seriously think China is guaranteed in doing so, then that is a level of confidence that is more consistent with Jai Hind style chest beating.


Edit: and if the argument is "China is guaranteed to succeed to catch up if they really tried, but right now they just aren't trying because it's not a priority" then that's an even worse thing to say.
 
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Mar ling

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【Lijian-2 Y2 Launch Vehicle Planned for September Launch】
Yang Yiqiang, Chairman and President of CAS Space, recently stated in an interview with the program Children of the Yellow River that the Lijian-2 Y2 launch vehicle is currently being assembled and is scheduled for launch this September. Without recovery, the cost of Lijian-2 can reach RMB 30,000 per kilogram, comparable to the recoverable Falcon 9's RMB 26,000 per kilogram. CAS Space expects that after achieving recovery next year, the cost will be reduced to RMB 15,000 per kilogram, significantly lower than Falcon 9's orbital price.
 

sunnymaxi

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China launches 22nd batch of Guowang satellites using LM-12 Rocket.

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