Chinese Marine Propulsion

Blitzo

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Your entire timeline is based on the assumption that the sCo2 reactor at the steel mill is the first experimental demo unit. But the way it was disclosed very much suggests otherwise. There wasn’t much fanfare about it being built and first put into operation as you would expect from a pioneering, revolutionary tech demonstration. Instead it’s just there, doing it’s thing like it’s just a regular Tuesday.

What seems more likely given the evidence so far is that sCo2 reactors were pioneered in secret and the steel mill application is just the commercialisation of it. And if you look back in recent history, that’s how things generally went. Apple didn’t pioneer any of the 10 key technologies needed to make the iPhone. Military research projects did the heavy lifting on pioneering and implementing those technologies, while Apple just took the end products of those military research projects, fine tuned it and combined it into the iPhone.

I would say it’s entirely possible that sCo2 reactors were first developed for the PLAN submarine programmes, and the steel plant reactor and planned icebreakers are just the commercialisation of that technology, rather then it being the other way around, that private industry fronted the developmental costs of making this thing work and the navy came sniffing around for its naval applications after the fact. In fact, I would say the balance of probabilities makes it far more likely that the navy developed the tech first as opposed to the other way around. Because if some private entity did indeed pioneer this tech, why the hell are they not shouting it from the rooftops and promoting it everywhere to start recouping some of that massive capital and development costs this would have taken?

If you broaden your prospects to consider the possibility that just because we found out about the commercial use of a sCo2 reactor first doesn’t mean that sCo2 reactors were first pioneered for commercial use and suddenly the possibility of it being used on the 09doesn’t seem so remote at all.

It would not be outside the realm of possibility that the 09V might not even be using the first gen sCo2 naval nuclear reactor, as it would have made far more sense to first validate the tech in a custom built 09III or SSK hull first. Indeed, it’s actually possible that the 09IIIB might be the first user of sCo2 reactors given the kind of delay you would expect before the fruits of cutting edge military R&D get’s declassified enough for commercial applications.

Indeed, I would say that the 09IIIB class, or at a minimum a test boat from the class running sCo2 is probably a prerequisite to the 09V running it, as the project management risks would be too great to incorporate it into the 09V design at inception if that was not the came.

There are currently no credible rumours of sCo2 reactors being pursued for PLAN SSNs at present or in the foreseeable future, so can we give this matter a rest.

We can keep an open mind sure, but there's a difference between acknowledging something as potentially theoretically applicable versus us as PLA watchers having a solid basis to speculate/project something.


Without guidance from the grapevine we are just freewheel speculating.


In fact, I'm going to move all this rubbish to a different thread.

I would like people to re-learn some discipline.
 

bsdnf

Senior Member
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Your entire timeline is based on the assumption that the sCo2 reactor at the steel mill is the first experimental demo unit. But the way it was disclosed very much suggests otherwise. There wasn’t much fanfare about it being built and first put into operation as you would expect from a pioneering, revolutionary tech demonstration. Instead it’s just there, doing it’s thing like it’s just a regular Tuesday.

What seems more likely given the evidence so far is that sCo2 reactors were pioneered in secret and the steel mill application is just the commercialisation of it. And if you look back in recent history, that’s how things generally went. Apple didn’t pioneer any of the 10 key technologies needed to make the iPhone. Military research projects did the heavy lifting on pioneering and implementing those technologies, while Apple just took the end products of those military research projects, fine tuned it and combined it into the iPhone.

I would say it’s entirely possible that sCo2 reactors were first developed for the PLAN submarine programmes, and the steel plant reactor and planned icebreakers are just the commercialisation of that technology, rather then it being the other way around, that private industry fronted the developmental costs of making this thing work and the navy came sniffing around for its naval applications after the fact. In fact, I would say the balance of probabilities makes it far more likely that the navy developed the tech first as opposed to the other way around. Because if some private entity did indeed pioneer this tech, why the hell are they not shouting it from the rooftops and promoting it everywhere to start recouping some of that massive capital and development costs this would have taken?

If you broaden your prospects to consider the possibility that just because we found out about the commercial use of a sCo2 reactor first doesn’t mean that sCo2 reactors were first pioneered for commercial use and suddenly the possibility of it being used on the 09doesn’t seem so remote at all.

It would not be outside the realm of possibility that the 09V might not even be using the first gen sCo2 naval nuclear reactor, as it would have made far more sense to first validate the tech in a custom built 09III or SSK hull first. Indeed, it’s actually possible that the 09IIIB might be the first user of sCo2 reactors given the kind of delay you would expect before the fruits of cutting edge military R&D get’s declassified enough for commercial applications.

Indeed, I would say that the 09IIIB class, or at a minimum a test boat from the class running sCo2 is probably a prerequisite to the 09V running it, as the project management risks would be too great to incorporate it into the 09V design at inception if that was not the came.
They never intended to hide it; the sCO2 project belongs to China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC), and it was researched from the outset as one of the innovative technologies for nuclear reactors. Waste heat power generation from steel plants was indeed just an experimental project.

However, I don't believe PLAN could be so far ahead of the civilian sector in its application without being known to the outside world, especially now that China is vigorously developing nuclear power and emphasizing military-civilian integration.

Technological leadership is already established; We are more likely to see China leading in both the military and civilian sectors of sCO2 simultaneously.
 

tphuang

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They never intended to hide it; the sCO2 project belongs to China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC), and it was researched from the outset as one of the innovative technologies for nuclear reactors. Waste heat power generation from steel plants was indeed just an experimental project.

However, I don't believe PLAN could be so far ahead of the civilian sector in its application without being known to the outside world, especially now that China is vigorously developing nuclear power and emphasizing military-civilian integration.

Technological leadership is already established; We are more likely to see China leading in both the military and civilian sectors of sCO2 simultaneously.
I think this is quite fair. eventually this will be built up for civilian purposes and it's quite logical that naval vessels will use it. That could be carriers or it could be icebreakers or large cruisers or subs or something else. Quite interesting if they can get this to work on something like icebreaker first.
 

bsdnf

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After checking some news reports, I found an interesting progress reports on marine sCO2 projects:

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The 100-kilowatt (SCO₂) closed-loop Brayton cycle power generation project, jointly developed by Shouhang High-Tech and the 704 Research Institute of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) for special environment applications, has successfully passed acceptance.
The project that passed acceptance is a complete 100-kilowatt SCO₂ power generation system based on an ultra-high-speed integrated TAC core unit. The technology can be extended to the megawatt level.
This unit achieves the goal of integrating the core module into a finite-sized cylindrical structure for special environment applications.
hmmmmm

But of course, this is only a hundred-kilowatt-level test project, still far from the ten-MW-level required by Navy. Based on some papers I've read, the safety and redundancy requirements on ships are much higher, especially for SSNs

For example, a leak of the carbon dioxide on land is insignificant, but at sea, especially on a submarine, it can be fatal. You would need to design a purging system and equip personnel with protective gear like oxygen mask. sCO2 systems operate with greater precision and are more difficult to maintain. Could rough seas, maneuvers, or explosive shockwaves disrupt the steady state and cause a major power outage?

It needs a significant amount of work and time.
 
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Tomboy

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First instinct was that 052D DDG-133 Baotou, but the article specified this ship to be civilian in nature.
052Ds aren't IEP either, I'm personally thinking Liaowang-1 despite them saying it's civilian. This paper itself apparently is from a author in the navy. It's the only large ship that could've been doing some kind of far sea trial by 2024.
 
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tphuang

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View attachment 169961View attachment 169963
Does anyone know what ship can this possibly be? Likely 2 CGT-30 in generator config with 2 9MW diesel generators for IEP. Did a long distance sea trial in 2024.
Yes I saw him post this. Super important news. Which indicates all the CGTs have already been testing on ships for a year.

also 90 MW IEPS. That’s quite powerful and pretty ideal for next generation destroyer.
 
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