Chinese Marine Propulsion


jobjed

Captain
This thread should be analogous to the engine thread at the Air Force section.

To start off, some clarifications about gas turbines.
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contains most of the information we need to clear up a few designations. Gongke101 and CD-中华神盾 are the two important people there.

Supplementary threads are
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,
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, and
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.

Main points:
  1. QC280 probably doesn't exist
  2. QC280 was the name of a failed attempt by AVIC's 430 Factory (Xi'an Aeroengine Corp.) to manufacture the UGT 25000 (see below)
  3. The gas turbines currently used by the PLAN in the 052s and 055s are indigenised UGT 25000s, called GT25000
    1. They have a mass flow rate of 85kg/s
    2. They measure 6.4m x 2.4m x 2.7m and weighs 16 tonnes
    3. They have a MTBO of 20,000 hours and lifespan of 60,000 hours
  4. They are manufactured by CSIC's 703 Institute in Harbin with assistance from
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    , and formerly 461 Factory (Wuhan Ship Machinery Ltd.) and 430 Factory
    1. 430 Factory, having gotten the full set of engineering drawings of the GT25000 and with assistance from AVIC, wanted to replace 703 as primary gas turbine supplier to the PLAN
    2. AVIC subsequently got sued by CSIC for corporate misconduct, lose the case, and got fined
  5. 703 Institute has the same IP rights to the GT25000 as the Ukrainians because Chinese money saved the project from cancellation in the 1990s
    1. In 1993, China signed a deal with Ukraine to produce the UGT 25000 and to purchase individual sets
    2. In 1994, the first test example began assembly
    3. In November 1995, the first test example began testing in Ukraine
    4. In September 2000, after 22,375 hours of testing, the test piece was taken in for its first major overhaul
    5. In June 2001, the refurbished turbine continued regular operation
  6. AVIC, after the QC280 debacle, is not giving up yet and has developed the QD185
    1. QD185 is based on the WS-10 core and has a flow rate of 58kg/s
    2. The QD185 measures 6.1m x 3m x 3m and weighs 8.8 tonnes, actually bigger in size than the GT25000
    3. The QD185 is not mature and needs a ton of refinement before it's fit for service
    4. As conveyed by the designation, the QD185 produces 18.5MW of power
  7. The near future of Chinese gas turbine development will be 40MW-class turbines developed from the current designs using intercooled recuperation technology
    1. The GT25000 has already achieved 33MW in its current form with assistance from Ukrainian engineers working for China
    2. With IC, the GT25000IC is aiming for a 25% increase in power to 40MW
    3. The general figures for IC is a 20% increase in power from a 100K decrease in compressor intake temp; for comparison, the UK's WR-21 boosted its power by 25% using IC
    4. AVIC's horse in this race is the QC400, an IC'd QD185
    5. The QC400, compared to the GT25000IC has a much more difficult task of boosting power by 116%(!!) from 18.5MW to 40MW -- lol good luck AVIC
    6. The IC section of the QC400 is also a lot bulkier than the GT25000IC's, plus the actual turbine set itself is bigger than the GT25000 and the PLAN prefers compact systems
    7. The 40MW competition was said to conclude at the end of 2018 with the winner granted state funding for further development and refinement, gongke hasn't updated on the current status
  8. The Ukrainians also assisted CSIC with designing the GT15; construction or testing of the prototype should be occurring now at the 461 Factory
  9. AVIC makes the QC70s so they've got that going for them at least
  10. However, QC70s have excessively hot exhaust which can damage the interior of the 071s' well-deck so more work is needed there

I'm going to do more digging on diesels, steam, and IEP for further posts. Don't hold your breath, though, a few months wait should be expected.
 

Bltizo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
This thread should be analogous to the engine thread at the Air Force section.

To start off, some clarifications about gas turbines.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
contains most of the information we need to clear up a few designations. Gongke101 and CD-中华神盾 are the two important people there.

Supplementary threads are
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
Much thanks for the hard work. These sort of posts are always among the most illuminating.

Interesting that there is a 40MW competition; I wonder what application it could have once it's ready. Naturally I would think the next generation of surface combatants; 055A, 052E, 054B, however it seems like whichever GT engines up winning that competition it would still be a while until it is ready for mass production and that would likely be after those ships are intended to be ready.

That said having a 40MW class GT is not unsurprising considering the growing use of MT30s in some current and upcoming warships.
 

gelgoog

Senior Member
Registered Member
This thread should be analogous to the engine thread at the Air Force section.

To start off, some clarifications about gas turbines.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
contains most of the information we need to clear up a few designations. Gongke101 and CD-中华神盾 are the two important people there.

Supplementary threads are
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Main points:
  1. QC280 probably doesn't exist
  2. QC280 was the name of a failed attempt by AVIC's 430 Factory (Xi'an Aeroengine Corp.) to manufacture the UGT 25000 (see below)
  3. The gas turbines currently used by the PLAN in the 052s and 055s are indigenised UGT 25000s, called GT25000
    1. They have a mass flow rate of 85kg/s
    2. They measure 6.4m x 2.4m x 2.7m and weighs 16 tonnes
    3. They have a MTBO of 20,000 hours and lifespan of 60,000 hours
  4. They are manufactured by CSIC's 703 Institute in Harbin with assistance from
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    , and formerly 461 Factory (Wuhan Ship Machinery Ltd.) and 430 Factory
    1. 430 Factory, having gotten the full set of engineering drawings of the GT25000 and with assistance from AVIC, wanted to replace 703 as primary gas turbine supplier to the PLAN
    2. AVIC subsequently got sued by CSIC for corporate misconduct, lose the case, and got fined
  5. 703 Institute has the same IP rights to the GT25000 as the Ukrainians because Chinese money saved the project from cancellation in the 1990s
    1. In 1993, China signed a deal with Ukraine to produce the UGT 25000 and to purchase individual sets
    2. In 1994, the first test example began assembly
    3. In November 1995, the first test example began testing in Ukraine
    4. In September 2000, after 22,375 hours of testing, the test piece was taken in for its first major overhaul
    5. In June 2001, the refurbished turbine continued regular operation
  6. AVIC, after the QC280 debacle, is not giving up yet and has developed the QD185
    1. QD185 is based on the WS-10 core and has a flow rate of 58kg/s
    2. The QD185 measures 6.1m x 3m x 3m and weighs 8.8 tonnes, actually bigger in size than the GT25000
    3. The QD185 is not mature and needs a ton of refinement before it's fit for service
    4. As conveyed by the designation, the QD185 produces 18.5MW of power
  7. The near future of Chinese gas turbine development will be 40MW-class turbines developed from the current designs using intercooled recuperation technology
    1. The GT25000 has already achieved 33MW in its current form with assistance from Ukrainian engineers working for China
    2. With IC, the GT25000IC is aiming for a 25% increase in power to 40MW
    3. The general figures for IC is a 20% increase in power from a 100K decrease in compressor intake temp; for comparison, the UK's WR-21 boosted its power by 25% using IC
    4. AVIC's horse in this race is the QC400, an IC'd QD185
    5. The QC400, compared to the GT25000IC has a much more difficult task of boosting power by 116%(!!) from 18.5MW to 40MW -- lol good luck AVIC
    6. The IC section of the QC400 is also a lot bulkier than the GT25000IC's, plus the actual turbine set itself is bigger than the GT25000 and the PLAN prefers compact systems
    7. The 40MW competition was said to conclude at the end of 2018 with the winner granted state funding for further development and refinement, gongke hasn't updated on the current status
  8. The Ukrainians also assisted CSIC with designing the GT15; construction or testing of the prototype should be occurring now at the 461 Factory
  9. AVIC makes the QC70s so they've got that going for them at least
  10. However, QC70s have excessively hot exhaust which can damage the interior of the 071s' well-deck so more work is needed there

I'm going to do more digging on diesels, steam, and IEP for further posts. Don't hold your breath, though, a few months wait should be expected.
This is quite good info!

With regards to Chinese access to marine diesel engines this link might provide some help.
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Also there are Chinese manufacturers with licenses to manufacture either MAN or SEMT Pielstick engine models.

I can understand the events the led us to this point. But I think, in the long range, the wider the split between the Chinese marine and airplane gas turbine manufacturers grows the more resources the Chinese will need to expend to compete in the world market.
 

hkbc

Junior Member
Much thanks for the hard work. These sort of posts are always among the most illuminating.

Interesting that there is a 40MW competition; I wonder what application it could have once it's ready.
GT gen sets for IEP and EM weapons would be top of my list!
 

Bltizo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
GT gen sets for IEP and EM weapons would be top of my list!
Of course, although the existing GT25000s could be comfortably used for that role as well.

40MW gas turbines would clearly correspond to a different powerplant configuration compared to using existing GT25000s with both used for IEPS
 

hkbc

Junior Member
Of course, although the existing GT25000s could be comfortably used for that role as well.

40MW gas turbines would clearly correspond to a different powerplant configuration compared to using existing GT25000s with both used for IEPS
Not really, the extra power comes from a small increase in volume, therefore power density improves, as the power source for IEP and EM isn't prescriptive you could say marine diesel gensets could also cover it but they come at a even higher space/weight requirement! Therefore, not really sure what point you are making apart from they must have a cunning plan to need 40MW GTs in some configuration.

Generally, if you have the space, in a IEP diesels for base load, adding GTs for peak load, for fuel efficiency, if space is not available all GTs because, well, you don't have the space! As the claimed power boost results from ICR it should make the GTs run more efficiently across a wider power output spectrum therefore could potentially replace diesel sets and reduce maintenance overheads, that may be the more important attribute rather than the 20% power boost.

My thoughts are that the electrical budget in future ships will go up as evidenced by the direction of travel of the PLA Navy's technological developments so you can either stuff more and more GTs into the machinery spaces and make a bigger ship or use more powerful ones and keep the ships roughly the same size, rocket science it is not!

The only other use case for boosting the unit power output would be that the next carrier will be conventional using GTs as the power plant instead of steam or for new LHDs since as you say the 33MW GT is plenty big enough for the current crop of ships.
 

latenlazy

Colonel
I can understand the events the led us to this point. But I think, in the long range, the wider the split between the Chinese marine and airplane gas turbine manufacturers grows the more resources the Chinese will need to expend to compete in the world market.
Why? These two applications require completely different optimization parameters. Not every application that shares a base technology benefits from the same research emphasis that drives each application. It would be a huge mistake not to have diversified offerings with R&D that is specialized to the mode of the technology specific to the market requirements you’re trying to meet.
 

taxiya

Colonel
Registered Member
Regarding QC280, as I read from
This thread should be analogous to the engine thread at the Air Force section.

To start off, some clarifications about gas turbines.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
contains most of the information we need to clear up a few designations. Gongke101 and CD-中华神盾 are the two important people there.

Supplementary threads are
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Main points:
  1. QC280 probably doesn't exist
  2. QC280 was the name of a failed attempt by AVIC's 430 Factory (Xi'an Aeroengine Corp.) to manufacture the UGT 25000 (see below)
Thanks for the informative posts. Regarding QC280 I have to disagree.
Gongke's word was "606的叫QC400太行基础上发展的,用间冷,中船703所的叫GT25000IC,QC280这个号以后有没有还两说呢。" Which means the type QC280 may or may not be granted. By saying that he does admit the existence of the engine program. He only doubt if the engine will get endorsement for a type name.
He also said (in your first link) ""QC280是中航发编号,GT25000IC是中船编号,两个激烈竞争中。" QC280 is AVIC's type number which is in competition at the time of speaking August 2018. And the result should be out at the end of 2018.

Then there is another post in 2017
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which according to AVIC publication that QC280/QD280 has reached 20 per year production capacity. I can not find the original report from AVIC site, but I found this link from ICBC in their stock report
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which says
2017年2月11日公告,公司近期收到陕西省发展和改革委员会《关于QC280/QD280燃气轮机生产能力建设项目竣工验收的批复》,公司“QC280/QD280燃气轮机生产能力建设项目”已通过竣工验收,公司可据此办理固定资产移交手续,正式交付使用。“QC280/QD280燃气轮机生产能力建设项目”系公司2009年非公开发行股票募集资金投资项目之一。通过该募投项目的建设,公司新增了关键工艺设备及建筑面积,提升了公司工艺技术和加工制造水平,拓展了公司燃气轮机的发展空间。
The company's program of establishing production capacity for QC280/QD280 has been achieved. Together with the 2017 cjdby post just above it is clear that the capacity is 20 per year.

I don't know if there is any dispute between some Chinese companies around QC280, nor do I know if I should trust any claims of such dispute. But it is clear that the program and the engine not only finished development but reached mass production by 2017.

Since QC280's capacity program started at 2009 lasted to 2017 and in active competition right now, any controversy regarding IP can be and should be ignored because any accusation in the last minute would be seen as a pure sabotage of competition and waste of state fund. The only thing that can exclude QC280 in Navy's program would be underperformance than its peer.
 
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