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Chevalier

Captain
Registered Member
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Not really "molding," or at least not in the sense that one might use the word to describe Indian attempts to build a cohesive identity.

Most of the "molding" happened ~3000 years ago during the expansion of the Zhou dynasty's feudal system, which brought a large region under the same cultural umbrella. Confucius came along ~500 years later and introduced the basis of a 'formal' system based on that cultural umbrella, which would be built on and go on to become official state philosophy another ~500 years later, which is around the time it really became a formal system that would carry on officially for ~2000 years until quite recently. Notably, it was formalized as the method of selection of government officials about ~500 years in during the Sui dynasty and solidified by the succeeding Tang. Confucianism is no longer official government policy or doctrine in any way, but the impact on Chinese culture is quite profound, considering that it's had two thousand years to marinate.

So it's not really "molding several ethnic groups into one identity," because by any real measurement those "several ethnic groups" are really a single group, have spoken the same language (mutually intelligible since at least the Zhou dynasty), written the same language (mutually legible since at least the Zhou, exactly the same since standardization by Qin ~2200 years ago) and shared the same cultural values (since at least early Zhou ~3000 years ago, greatly strengthened during Han ~200 years ago and by succeeding dynasties).

Of course, there have been small tribes throughout history in the past ~3000 years that assimilate, but that's not "molding."
I agree with the notion that Han (Huaxia or whatever name) as a culture identity is founded somewhere 3000 years ago by Zhou and Qin. But if I understand you right, you seem to downplay the continous infusing of "foreign/borderland" people into Han people since then.

The trueth is that, the infusing is not only continuing but in even larger scale. Just list a few ethnic groups that disapeared since Qin dynasty some 2000 years ago, Xiongnu, Xianbei, Southern Turk, Khitan, Jurchen, Dangxiang, Jie (羯), Di (氐), shatuo (沙陀). They all amounted large percentage when migrated into "China proper" then totally disapeared. Even the word "Han people" is created by Mongol Yuan dynasy in 13th centry to include anyone speaking Mandarian dialects in northern China that includes Jurchen and Khitan which ironically is genetically and linguistically Mongolic people. The succeeding Ming dynasty continued that naming by further inclusion of the Mongol troops that switched side to Ming. Think about the Tang and Sui expresses and Prime ministers and many generals are ethnic Xianbei, Tujue (turk), that shows how big the scale of ethnic infusing was in 400 to 500AD.

This kind of infusing of large number of non-Han continued in southern China as well after Qin and no smaller than the north. Many today's southern Han are ethnic minorities in large numbers who switched name and language. Example is the Bozhou Yang family that ruled part of SW China through Yuan to Ming claiming of being Han from Hongnong county of Shaanxi, but in reality they are local Miao people.

I am trying to say that there is no clear cut historical boundry when Han is made/fixed (culturally or genetically) then remained relative stable and distinct, but it is a continous and increasingly larger snowballing process.
 
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_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
I agree with the notion that Han (Huaxia or whatever name) as a culture identity is founded somewhere 3000 years ago by Zhou and Qin. But if I understand you right, you seem to downplay the continous infusing of "foreign/borderland" people into Han people since then.

The trueth is that, the infusing is not only continuing but in even larger scale. Just list a few ethnic groups that disapeared since Qin dynasty some 2000 years ago, Xiongnu, Xianbei, Southern Turk, Khitan, Jurchen, Dangxiang, Jie (羯), Di (氐), shatuo (沙陀). They all amounted large percentage when migrated into "China proper" then totally disapeared. Even the word "Han people" is created by Mongol Yuan dynasy in 13th centry to include anyone speaking Mandarian dialects in northern China that includes Jurchen and Khitan which ironically is genetically and linguistically Mongolic people. The succeeding Ming dynasty continued that naming by further inclusion of the Mongol troops that switched side to Ming. Think about the Tang and Sui expresses and Prime ministers and many generals are ethnic Xianbei, Tujue (turk), that shows how big the scale of ethnic infusing was in 400 to 500AD.

This kind of infusing of large number of non-Han continued in southern China as well after Qin and no smaller than the north. Many today's southern Han are ethnic minorities in large numbers who switched name and language. Example is the Bozhou Yang family that ruled part of SW China through Yuan to Ming claiming of being Han from Hongnong county of Shaanxi, but in reality they are local Miao people.

I am trying to say that there is no clear cut historical boundry when Han is made/fixed (culturally or genetically) then remained relative stable and distinct, but it is a continous and increasingly larger snowballing process.
Is Khan related to Han?
 

BasilicaLew

Junior Member
Registered Member
Invasion of Venezuela seems imminent now. B-52 flying closer to Venezuela today combined with this statement.

The Europeans will go along with it because they are likely betting that US controlled Venezuelan oil reserves will replace Russian oil. Probably to pave the way for 500% China tariffs from NATO in the future.

Look at Iraq. That oil isnt going to be profitable for years after because of the amount of sabotage the Venezuelans will do to the fields.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Is Khan related to Han?
no, Khan is the title of ruler in Mongolic and Turkic languages which are not related to Mandarian language (a branch of Sino-Tibetan).

Han is a name of river in Southwest China. It is a tributary water of Yantze River in Southern China. The founder of Han dynasty Liu Bang received his fiefdom in the Han river vally in Southwest China (today's Sichuan province). After he defeated everyone he named his dynasty Han, a tradition of naming by ariscratical title. The population would not be named Han as there is no reason to call your own name. People would self introduce as Zhongyuan Ren (people from central plain), or Lingnan Ren (people from morden day Guangdong) and so on. Only in Yuan dynasty, the mongol emperor need a catagorization for official assignment based on the time of joining Chengis Khan's struggle, they made four catagories under their rule, and Han was used officially for the first time to refer to a population.

In short, Han is name of a river to name of a dynasty to name of people.

Interestingly in most European languages, the word like Chin, Sinea, China, Kina are the name of first dynasy before Han. But inside China the dynasty lasted for very short time, so the name did not stick around as Han would.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
no, Khan is the title of ruler in Mongolic and Turkic languages which are not related to Mandarian language (a branch of Sino-Tibetan).

Han is a name of river in Southwest China. It is a tributary water of Yantze River in Southern China. The founder of Han dynasty Liu Bang received his fiefdom in the Han river vally in Southwest China (today's Sichuan province). After he defeated everyone he named his dynasty Han, a tradition of naming by ariscratical title. The population would not be named Han as there is no reason to call your own name. People would self introduce as Zhongyuan Ren (people from central plain), or Lingnan Ren (people from morden day Guangdong) and so on. Only in Yuan dynasty, the mongol emperor need a catagorization for official assignment based on the time of joining Chengis Khan's struggle, they made four catagories under their rule, and Han was used officially for the first time to refer to a population.

In short, Han is name of a river to name of a dynasty to name of people.

Interestingly in most European languages, the word like Chin, Sinea, China, Kina are the name of first dynasy before Han. But inside China the dynasty lasted for very short time, so the name did not stick around as Han would.
I asked because Khan was first used by Xianbei around the same time as Han dynasty era. Thought maybe they borrowed/derived from a Han concept.
 

Chevalier

Captain
Registered Member
Invasion of Venezuela seems imminent now. B-52 flying closer to Venezuela today combined with this statement.

The Europeans will go along with it because they are likely betting that US controlled Venezuelan oil reserves will replace Russian oil. Probably to pave the way for 500% China tariffs from NATO in the future.

Western elites are such hypocrites; all they believe in is power. From European Christian monks hypocritically breaking their commandment against stealing with the theft of Chinese silkworms to current Europeans blithely ignoring their supposed liberal democratic screed that innovation could only come from democracy by trying to steal Chinese EV tech, it is clear that the the role of a nemesis like China is sorely needed by the world. China is like the anti West- secular, rational, pragmatic and infinitely more compassionate and humane- just compare societal norms and the role of government towards the people.

Fun fact, when the first penal colony of Australia was set up, many convicts both men and women tried to flee north to China because they saw China much as the west is now starting to see China, remember this was before the opium wars as well.


why Japan despite wanting to commit seppuku by PLA still relies on Chinese rare earths
 
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