What if mega bomber options and other what-if theories!

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
To clarify, the dart/arrow configuration I suggested before would not aim to be supersonic capable (a supersonic capable aircraft of such size, and being stealthy, seems a tad too ambitious)
In my opinion, PLA will not choose a particular Bomber shape just to fit a certain missile, In this case, the JL-1. The shape of the plane will be determined by what benefits that shape brings in terms of aerodynamic efficiency, fuel capacity, speed so forth. Each shape will have its own pros and cons when it comes to range and optimum operating speed.

I'm not an aerospace expert, but my surface level knowledge tells me that an arrow shape is more suitable for high-supersonic flight with lower wing efficiency. Kinda like what Dark sword is designed for. A plane operating very fast in a very high, near space altitude.

So, if PLA goes for an arrow-like design, it has to be a supersonic Bomber with atleast Mach 2 supercruise ability.

A supersonic bomber like that will have its own trade-offs, like perhaps low-bypass engines, which again has much lower fuel efficiency and thus probably much lower range.

So, I don't think such a plane fits with what Yankee and others were saying, which is the ability to carry JL-1, which presumably will be able to hit CONUS. That kind of goal is pointing towards a more B-2/B-21 like shape with low speed, hi-bypass engine and likely enough range to come close to CONUS without going through Russian airspace.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
Yes, for conventional strikes. But if the ALBMs are intended to have a nuclear role, a situation may arise in which there isn't time to launch a massive aerial campaign to destroy air defenses in Japan. Stealth would help the bomber get through in that situation.

Eastern Russia isn't empty, and the bulk of the VKS' fighter strength is strung along the border with China. It would be great if Russia would allow overflights, but it isn't a good idea to depend on that, especially with a nuclear strike system.
You do it together. Stealth doesn't work that well in fighter-augmented IADS without support anyway. I.e. for just that mission, low altitude + support is quite desirable.

Also, number of fighter rgts in eastern Russia is minimal (single digit of them; I don't think Russian forces in Eastern MD can even take on Japan w/o significant reinforcements from the west), and unless Russia will go full blue 8-nations alliance style, stripping western frontier, i don't think it will change. China is guarding Russia's rear as much as Russia is guarding China's now. It's a very clear mutual benefit.

With advancements in ballistic missile accuracy, this seems questionable. Have there been any actual indications the H-20 might be intended to operate *in* North American airspace? In this day and age, what advantage would there be to dropping bombs from directly over targets, as opposed to hitting them with ballistic or cruise missiles?
Gravity bomb(even with kit/wings) is basically all warhead. Everything is effective weight, i.e. transport advantage is significant.
As soon as you start adding "true" rocket engine, you add relatively high tech parasite weight, that isn't that warhead.
For example, one JL-1 ALBM may equal couple dozen B-61s, while delivering just one.
If stealth bomber is more survivable than single ALBM(which isn't exactly a big if, esp. since USA has continental mid-course ABM) - it makes sense to carry more.

Second advantage is sensors - manned aircraft within LOS is by default a strike/reconnaissance system, that can observe space around it, make targeting decisions(even against moving targets), choose suitable weapons(no need to evaporate everything, when just SDB/a2a can produce desired effect) and evaluate results - everything immediately.

Stand off carriers are effectively delivery platforms only - they're blind, their targeting decisions aren't even theirs. At best they're as fresh as your weapons' ToT/last OtA(space) update.
But since we're talking nuclear war, and space(or even command facilities) can be gone completely - this delay starts growing, at worst becoming map targeting outright. Which is obviously not ideal and completely lacks feedback (like, how you even know w/o recon feed, where you weapons worked, where they didn't.)
Furthermore, there's a weapon choice.

I'd suggest JL-1 is the best choice for H-6N, all things considered. Why?
It isn't an intercontinental bomber by default, and its bomb bay is small(or even filled with additional fuel). External weapons are a careful consideration of drag coefficient v pen chance, which is a very tough equation for a small heavy bomber.
If not because of H-6 platform, i personally think China would've went for very long range LO cruise missiles, like Russia. They just make it further using much less volume and weight. For example, on a same mission H-6N will prosecute with 1 JL-1, Tu-95 (through sheer range advantage) will launch 4 or maybe even 8 weapons, and Tu-160(where everything is internal) - 12. Yes, with individually worse chances of getting to the targets. But it's 12.
And with mix of tactical missiles and gravity bombs, CW bombers could rival boomers in their destructive might. Severa, dozens of warheads per bomber are totally doable.
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In my opinion, PLA will not choose a particular Bomber shape just to fit a certain missile, In this case, the JL-1. The shape of the plane will be determined by what benefits that shape brings in terms of aerodynamic efficiency, fuel capacity, speed so forth. Each shape will have its own pros and cons when it comes to range and optimum operating speed.

I was also doubtful as to the idea of the PLA seeking to develop a specific shape for a bomber around a specific payload class, but it seems the rumours are saying that they want their new bomber to be able to carry "long" unitary payloads, so that is out of our hands.

Our job now is to try and rationalize how such an aircraft may look like in context of other likely PLA requirements for such an aircraft.


I'm not an aerospace expert, but my surface level knowledge tells me that an arrow shape is more suitable for high-supersonic flight with lower wing efficiency. Kinda like what Dark sword is designed for. A plane operating very fast in a very high, near space altitude.

So, if PLA goes for an arrow-like design, it has to be a supersonic Bomber with atleast Mach 2 supercruise ability.

A supersonic bomber like that will have its own trade-offs, like perhaps low-bypass engines, which again has much lower fuel efficiency and thus probably much lower range.

So, I don't think such a plane fits with what Yankee and others were saying, which is the ability to carry JL-1, which presumably will be able to hit CONUS. That kind of goal is pointing towards a more B-2/B-21 like shape with low speed, hi-bypass engine and likely enough range to come close to CONUS without going through Russian airspace.

That isn't necessarily true. A low aspect ratio/arrow shaped aircraft does not have to be high supersonic -- it very well may be high subsonic instead.

If you want a stealthy, high supersonic, near space aircraft then you are adding much more requirements to the aircraft and inevitably making it much more complex and expensive.

Just because an aircraft is a low aspect ratio, arrowhead shaped aircraft doesn't mean it needs to be supersonic capable.

I refer to my post #4581, where among other things the previous US concept for the low altitude penetrator (alternative to B-2 back in the day) is a similar low aspect ratio, large, high subsonic (NOT supersonic) aircraft. The only difference is that concept at the time was oriented for low altitude performance; the idea we are talking about of course would be high altitude and oriented around a longer weapons bay rather than a wide weapons bay.


===

To be honest, I'm always thinking of those new hangar-bunkers at Neixiang. ~59 meters of max wingspan (accounting for wall clearance) is just too much for one H-6, but not enough for two H-6s parked in parallel, even with wingtips touching. And since the airbase does not host any other aircraft of similar sizes to the H-6 or larger, this means that those hangar-bunkers are most likely meant for the H-20.

However, if a dart/diamond/arrow-shaped H-20 is indeed true, wouldn't either one of these be the case?
- A very wide/fat dart/diamond/arrow design (i.e. wingspan of 50+ meters) with a high aspect ratio; or
- A very narrow/slim dart/diamond/arrow design (i.e. wingspan of no more than 27-28 meters, considering wall and wingtip clearance) with a low aspect ratio.

In fact, the latter configuration is closer to what @Blitzo has previously envisioned, although certainly not going to be a high aspect ratio design. Unless, of course, the aircraft is in the former configuration, but with the length that is either roughly in the similar ballpark as its wingspan of 50+ meters, or slightly/somewhat longer. However, this particular design would also result in a very massive (and also a very heavy) H-20.

I'm not sure how seriously to take the bunkers in terms of using them to size how big H-20 may be -- but if we were forced to interpret them in context of the idea of a future H-20 oriented around "long unitary weapons bays," the geometry I suggested in #4581 or #4601 could be viable, and a wingspan of 26-28m could enable two such aircraft to be parked alongside one another in a 59m width space if absolutely needed.


A 50m wingspan aircraft while also having the length to fit a long unitary weapon like JL-1 or thereabouts (or other large, long hypersonic weapons), as you said, would be very very heavy and I admit I'm a bit skeptical if the PLA would be that ambitious.
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
LAP-render-top-860x763.jpg
Take of speed: Mach 1.
 

GTI

Junior Member
Registered Member
The only limitation is People's conservative thinking. I am sure if J-36's dimensions were released 1 year ago, people here would not believe it and call it unfeasible. But we have a massive supersonic 3 engine air superiority fighter that is twice the size of J-20 flying.

People need to understand that China is technologically breaking barriers in ways US and the west cannot imagine. They are coming up with stuff that seems almost sci-fi few years ago.

Compare to that, 300 ton stealth Bomber is not big of a deal. Sure, it will be extremely costly. But I don't think its technically that challenging. All planes operate with same kind of principles. If China can build 220 ton Y-20, they can also build a flying wing with similar weight. Its just a different plane shape and different control surfaces.

They already have the stealth technology, they have the ram technology. They have experimented enough with flying wing designs that they can build the control surfaces.

A 4 engine WS-20 configuration can probably fly with 300 tons.

Overall, I don't see any technological limitations for building such a plane.
I think you need to try and improve your knowledge and understanding of technology / military technology.

And also read the threads you participate in, carefully, before commenting.

It’s getting to the point where your comments are so inane (and easily solvable with 5 mins reading of prior posts) that they temporarily derail threads or ongoing conversation.

If a traditional flying wing needs to have a long weapons bay, then it starts to get very unrealistically wide. A lot of that is basic geometry, you can get a set square and try yourself.
 

lcloo

Major
Just a thought, not neccessary related to H20. Since by general consensus, the Sept 3rd parade is for weapons/platforms already in service, so JL-1 ALBM is in service either at evaluation/operational testing stage or already in regular service stage, what aircraft was or would be used for evaluation & testing stage? How was the prototype launched for flight testings from an aerial platform before entering service?

There are only 3 large aerial platform that we know, IL-76, Y20 and H6N. If either of these 3 aerial platform are not ideal carrier for JL-1, Why the service induction of JL-1 ALBM now? If the original platform (H20?) is postponed due to the need to re-design due to new requirement, and if a war suddently break out how would JL-1 be deployed before H20 becomes FOC?

Does this mean the "original designed" H20 was already near maiden flight stage before it was postponed ? Or there is an expectation that there might not be a major delay in time for the appearance of "re-designed" H20?
 
Last edited:

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just a thought, not neccessary related to H20. Since by general consensus, the Sept 3rd parade is for weapons/platforms already in service, so JL-1 ALBM is in service either at evaluation/operational testing stage or already in regular service stage, what aircraft was or would be used for evaluation & testing stage? How was the prototype launched for flight testings from an aerial platform before entering service?

There are only 3 large aerial platform that we know, IL-76, Y20 and H6N. If either of these 3 aerial platform are not ideal carrier for JL-1, Why the service induction of JL-1 ALBM now? If the original platform (H20?) is postponed due to the need to re-design due to new requirement, and if a war suddently break out how would JL-1 be deployed before H20 becomes FOC?

Does this mean the "original designed" H20 was already near maiden flight stage before it was postponed ? Or there is an expectation that there might not be a major delay in time for the appearance of "re-designed" H20?
I believe a modified H-6 would be able to do the job. The "Beijing Hammer" ALBM has a striking resemblance to the JL-1. Perhaps there's a slot in the H-6 belly, or the JL-1 has folding fins. But I feel like the JL-1 is the official designation to the Beijing Hammer.
1758078989072.png
1758079090444.png


I can see some grey fins here.
1758079214537.png
 

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
I believe a modified H-6 would be able to do the job. The "Beijing Hammer" ALBM has a striking resemblance to the JL-1. Perhaps there's a slot in the H-6 belly, or the JL-1 has folding fins. But I feel like the JL-1 is the official designation to the Beijing Hammer.
View attachment 160880
View attachment 160881
H-6N is specifically built for this it seems
 
Top