PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank

sheogorath

Colonel
Registered Member
they already have pretty large UGVs, but we are not at the point where UGVs can replace crew members, so we still need vehicles like this.
Oh totally. Not refering to fully UGV, though, but T-14-like solutions of keeping the entire turret unmanned and moving the crew to a capsule in the hull, which seems to be the goal except for the Leopard 2 derivatives.

No, it doesn´t. An unmanned turret tank will always be lighter than a traditional one for the same level of crew protection. However a tank with unmanned turret and a larger gun will always be heavier than another tank with unmanned turret but designd around a smaller gun.
The weight increase over the usage of larger calibers is relatively marginal in the context of an amored vehicle if going from 120mm/125mm to 130mm or so. In that regards, to have a 105mm gun with similar performance to a 120mm gun, you'll require a new larger casing to hold the propellant plus the required dampening and stabilization system to cope with it, so you are looking at a weight and volumne increase anyway.
 

ENTED64

Junior Member
Registered Member
IMHO all the discussion about how the next gen PLA tank will fare against an enemy tank on it's own is all about the 不怕一万,自怕万一 (Just in case) concept. Considering most of us here don't have the full picture on how modern ISR results in enemy neutralized, it's not that hard to imagine a scenario when the ISR failed the frontline troops on a local scale, leaving the next gen PLA tank to face an enemy tank with minimal/no support. Especially in urban combat where hiding spots are aplenty. And let's not forget that the enemy gets a vote.
This is reasonable but my point was that we shouldn't overemphasize this. Yes things might break down and it is worth having backup plans and equipment that still performs reasonably well in those situations. However, you shouldn't take that too far. I'm not saying enemy tanks aren't a threat, I'm just saying they're at best a secondary threat so you shouldn't optimize for that threat to the detriment of more common threats. Nothing is perfect, there are always going to be tradeoffs.
 

alanch90

Junior Member
Registered Member
The weight increase over the usage of larger calibers is relatively marginal in the context of an amored vehicle if going from 120mm/125mm to 130mm or so. In that regards, to have a 105mm gun with similar performance to a 120mm gun, you'll require a new larger casing to hold the propellant plus the required dampening and stabilization system to cope with it, so you are looking at a weight and volumne increase anyway.
Even if the gun weight itself was comparable (and this depends on metallurgy development so a gun made with todays techniques can be lighter than another one that is half a century old yet both using the same caliber), the deal breaker here is the amount of internal volume needed for ammunition. For example the 130/140mm guns in development use enlarged 120mm casings (same diameters) and have ammunition racks that can accomodate projectiles up to 1300mm in length. Thats why their demonstrators you see today have such huge turret bustles. That in turn requires tuning the weight balance of the turret, etc. The smaller the ammunition, the greater the weight savings.

As for the 105mm, nothing indicates its using different case dimensions than good old super standard 105mm (105×617mmR). Only that those cases might not be made of metal but perhaps of a combustible material. As for dimensions, current 105mm APFSDS in use with ZTQ-15 already reaches 1100mm in total length (as inside the case). Thats more than 100mm longer than current Western ammo racks can fit (up to 987mm) so in theory Chinese 105mm tanks can already use APFSDS that are longer than tanks with 120mm. Now, ammunition length is nothing without energy and in this regard recent Chinese research has made breakthroughs regarding propellant technologies (some of those works were shared in this thread pages ago) which indicate that newer 105mm APFSDS can have super high pressure propellant. In other words, theoretically, the 105mm to be used with this "ZTZ-201" can have longer projectiles than 120mm and flying at comparable velocities, resulting in comparable or superior performance even when it comes to KE capability. But on the other hand, HE projectiles will have lesser effects on target, which might not be that bad unless you are fighting in a former soviet city that was built with crazy strong concrete buildings.
 
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Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Even if the gun weight itself was comparable (and this depends on metallurgy development so a gun made with todays techniques can be lighter than another one that is half a century old yet both using the same caliber), the deal breaker here is the amount of internal volume needed for ammunition. For example the 130/140mm guns in development use enlarged 120mm casings (same diameters) and have ammunition racks that can accomodate projectiles up to 1300mm in length. Thats why their demonstrators you see today have such huge bustlets. That in turn requires tuning the weight balance of the turret, etc. The smaller the ammunition, the greater the weight savings.

As for the 105mm, nothing indicates its using different case dimensions than good old super standard 105mm (105×617mmR). Only that those cases might not be made of metal but perhaps of a combustible material. As for dimensions, current 105mm APFSDS in use with ZTQ-15 already reaches 1100mm in total length (as inside the case). Thats more than 100mm longer than current Western ammo racks can fit (up to 987mm) so in theory Chinese 105mm tanks can already use APFSDS that are longer than tanks with 120mm. Now, ammunition length is nothing without energy and in this regard recent Chinese research has made breakthroughs regarding propellant technologies (some of those works were shared in this thread pages ago) which indicate that newer 105mm APFSDS can have super high pressure propellant. In other words, theoretically, the 105mm to be used with this "ZTZ-201" can have longer projectiles than 120mm and flying at comparable velocities, resulting in comparable or superior performance even when it comes to KE capability. But on the other hand, HE projectiles will have lesser effects on target, which might not be that bad unless you are fighting in a former soviet city that was built with crazy strong concrete buildings.
Can current 3rd gen tanks with 120/125mm cannons even reliable destroy such concrete buildings with HE lol?

If not, if the ZTZ-201 can have, say 4 ammo for every 3 that 125mm tanks have, and likely also more HE rounds as well.
Not to mention firerate.
 

alanch90

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can current 3rd gen tanks with 120/125mm cannons even reliable destroy such concrete buildings with HE lol?
I read somewhere that it takes 10 shots of 125mm HE to take down a small building or structure in former soviet cities. Thats a lot of time a tanks needs to be engaging a target, meaning a large window of oportunity for the tank itself to be targeted.

If not, if the ZTZ-201 can have, say 4 ammo for every 3 that 125mm tanks have, and likely also more HE rounds as well.
Not to mention firerate.
Well, the case being of a smaller diameter it could fit either more ammunition in the same volume (for comparison, current tanks with bustle autoloaders can fit up to 22 120/130/140mm rounds) or keeping a normal amount of rounds for a smaller bustle which in turn allows the tank to be more compact and lighter. For reference, ZTQ-15 bustle autoloader can fit up to 18 rounds.
 

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
I read somewhere that it takes 10 shots of 125mm HE to take down a small building or structure in former soviet cities. Thats a lot of time a tanks needs to be engaging a target, meaning a large window of oportunity for the tank itself to be targeted.
Well, if the rumors of this 105 being a very fast autoloaded cannon or even an autocannon similar to the ARES gun is true then I doubt explosive mass per second is going to be an issue with this thing.
 
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