The Kashmir conflict 2025.

[sheogorath]

I am no expert and I have no knowledge on this. So be easy on my ignorance.

Are the instruction and target data in an air to air missile stored in RAM or ROM? If both mode of storage are used, which is more common? and will critical software be stored in RAM? If the data and instructions are in RAM, shouldn't all software instruction, target data etc be deleted with power outage?

Which mean any aam that did not self-destruct would have no data in its memory storage?

Complete software, instruction, target data etc may be store on the aircraft itself, and uploaded to the missiles before take-off for the mission.

Im just especulating here but probably both?. ROM for the algoritmhs and base guidance system, RAM or flash memory for mid guidance/captive target updates

 

[generalmeng]

It'd be funny if IAF still has to pay the French for the maintenance of the totally not downed jets

You know, we need to keep the narrative ongoing, so extra 5 mil a year for the maintaince package please, directly into my personal bank account.

Every Indian is celebrating this. So do we have confirmation that the debris only has limited value? Many Indians are claiming it's completely intact, unexploded, without a single part missing. And because of this, China won't sell J-35 to Paki, to punish them & prevent more tech leak.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1920749296422420606

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1920747819268260141

Pl 15 is 4 meters long. Looking at the persons feet and leg in the picture, we can easily estimate the remain of pl15 is at most 3meters. So clearly 1 meter is missing.

Edit

I think we all need to take a step back and appreciate the complexity of modern air war and the importance of awcks, I think paf have an edge in this battle mainly due to their Chinese awcks and Chinese fighters and Chinese missiles that allowed them to have a integration effect.

India with their multi national weapons, probably was totally confused during the chaos. They will relay heavy on ground radar command, and lego models to keep track of their airborne jets. Their pilots were probably confused and scared shirtless during the chaos, and didn't even know they were being fired on.

Keep in mind this region have mountains, and their airbase are about 100km away from the boarder, horizon effect reduce the effectiveness of ground radar and ground command. I have a feeling due to encryption, Russian jets, French jets and Indian jets don't talk well to each other or awcks. This is a great lesson for India.

 

[bsdnf]

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Figures 1 and 2 are maps of air defense missile coverage in the northern border area of India that I made. The air defense missile range parameters are as follows (sorted according to public parameters):
S400: 400km dark blue S125: 20km dark red Akash: 25km purple Barak 8: 100km white

Other marked information (sorted according to public information):
Yellow: Indian SAM site (also the location of the airport) Blue: PL15 wreckage location Green: 9M96 wreckage

From the sorted information, it can be seen that there are three locations of aircraft wreckage (Figure 3 Figure 4 Figure 5) (crash site) located at the edge of the range of India's SAM system other than S-400 (the available overload of SAM missiles here is less, and it is difficult to intercept AAM/SAM here). Pakistan can accurately shoot down Indian aircraft at this location. It is very likely that Pakistan has mastered the combat schedule of Indian aircraft takeoff from the beginning and accurately tracked all aircraft, and launched precise strikes on relevant aircraft when they enter/exit the relevant SAM protection distance boundary. The S-400 system may have encountered electronic warfare suppression from Pakistan, which made it difficult to perform effectively. It can be said that the system is a "surgical" precision interception operation!

 

[Gloire_bb]

I think that it wouldn’t be so bad if the French priced the plane more reasonably. Trouble is it is like 7 times more expensive than the J-10 that shot it down.

Not 7, more like 2.5-3 Apples to apples(and ~4.5 to JF-17).
But those numbers are quite comparable, and this is horrible.
As horrible (or more) is that supporting package is even more overpriced.

 

[Blitzo]

I am not sure if this article from the Telegraph has been posted yet (I couldn't find it in the last couple of pages), but I will leave here as a record to add to the way western media has been covering the aerial encounter.

To be honest the author put in a decent bit of effort into this article, with only some minor errors in reasoning.

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How China helped Pakistan shoot down Indian fighter jets​

The apparent involvement of Chinese aircraft in shooting down a Western-made Rafale has ricocheted through defence circles

Memphis Barker
Senior Foreign Correspondent
08 May 2025 3:20pm BST

At 4am on Wednesday, China’s ambassador to Pakistan hurried to the foreign ministry to celebrate an unprecedented military success.
Pakistan had reportedly shot down several Indian aircraft in the hours before using Chinese J-10C fighter jets.
“Our jet fighters… shot down three Indian Rafales, three Rafales [that] are French,” Ishaq Dar, Pakistan’s foreign minister, told parliament on Wednesday. “Ours were J-10C.”

The Chinese delegation, roused from their sleep by the outbreak of conflict between two nuclear-armed nations, was thrilled with the success of the Pakistani defence, Mr Dar said.

“Being a friendly nation, they expressed great happiness.”
India has not officially responded to reports that it lost as many as five fighter jets. But the apparent involvement of Chinese aircraft in shooting down a Rafale has ricocheted through defence circles – and sent stock in its maker, Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, surging by as much as 20 per cent.

Until now, Chinese weaponry had not been field-tested against Western-made systems like the Rafale. The Indian Air Force (IAF) operates a fleet of 36 Rafale F3Rs, the most advanced model of the aircraft.

A French intelligence source confirmed to CNN on Wednesday that at least one had been shot down, marking the first time a Rafale has been lost during combat.

In an official statement, China’s foreign ministry said it was “not familiar with the matter” when asked whether Chinese jets were involved in the skirmish.

Later on Thursday evening, a US official told Reuters that there was “high confidence” a J-10C had shot down two Indian fighters, using air-to-air missiles.

That appeared to confirm the aircraft first known “kill”, having entered service in its earliest form in 2003. It has been described as a “4.5 generation fighter”, like the British Eurofighter Typhoons and almost at the level of fifth generation systems like the US-made F-35.

Hu Jixin, the former editor of the Chinese state-owned Global Times, said the battle showed that “China’s level of military manufacturing has completely surpassed that of Russia and France”, adding that Taiwan should feel “even more scared”.

Defence analysts remain cautious of reading too much into the technological battle between the two systems. Pilot error, or the rules of engagement, could have contributed to the Indian Rafale’s demise.

But open-source intelligence analysts are poring over images of the wreckage of a Chinese-made PL-15 missile, broadcast on Indian television and shared on social media.

The missile, which is carried by the J-10C, has never been used in combat before. But its ability to fire at targets far beyond the visual range of pilots appears to fit with the outlines of the clash on Wednesday morning.

Neither Pakistani nor Indian aircraft crossed the border, engaging instead in a “stand-off” conflict at a distance of more than 100km at times. The wreckage of a Rafale was discovered near the city of Bathinda deep inside India, according to multiple open-source analysts.

China’s development of the PL-15 prompted the US military to invest in a missile specifically designed to outrange it.

The PL-15E, the version exported to the Pakistani armed forces, can travel up to 145km, somewhat less far than the domestic equivalent.

Chinese military observers have long viewed it as a “very capable missile”, said Fabian Hoffmann, a missile technology researcher and non-resident fellow of the Centre for European Policy Analysis.

“But obviously [if a hit is confirmed] this is now a very public demonstration of the prowess of Chinese military aerospace technologies” that “carries outside the bubble”.

“This is another point of indication that, if there was a Taiwan conflict, you probably should not assume that Chinese technology would fail at the same rate as Russia’s during the war in Ukraine.”

On April 29, with cross-border tensions rising, Pakistan’s army published a YouTube video showcasing its military arsenal.

In the video, a Chinese-made JF-17 Block 3 fighter jet, less advanced than the J-10C, can be seen equipped with PL-15 missiles. The combination offers “potent punch”, a caption reads.

For pilots in the Pakistani Air Force, the PL-15 missile has several advantages. Once fired, it has a large rocket booster that briefly propels the projectile to above Mach 5, or hypersonic, speeds.

In the middle of its flight, it is guided to target by an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that can be held on the launch system or a separate vehicle. Close to the target, it switches on its own AESA radar, locks on, and homes in with deadly accuracy.

A dual-pulse motor means that, after the initial blast falls away, a second burst of speed can be generated within 10 or so kilometres from the target.

“Because they are very, very fast, they basically have what you call a ‘no-escape zone’,” Mr Hoffmann said.

The switch from the first radar system to the missile’s onboard version also allows the jet that launched it to turn away from the target and flee any counterfire.

“There’s survivability for the [launch] platform, but also lethality for the [missile] itself.”

When India and Pakistan clash, so do their military backers. In recent years, the two nations have rapidly diverged in terms of where they source their weaponry.

Now, Islamabad buys the vast majority of its arms from China. Some 82 per cent of imports between 2019 and 2023 came from its “iron brother”, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), which tracks global arms flows.

Imports from the US, meanwhile, have collapsed.

At the same time, Delhi has stepped up arms purchases from Western allies and reduced its reliance on Russia. Since 2006, purchases from France, Israel and the US have surged. Imports from Moscow have fallen from 75 per cent of the total to 36 per cent, according to the SIPRI.

“The big advantage the Pakistanis have is that their primary weapon supplier is China,” said Dr Walter Ladwig, an associate fellow at the Royal United Services Institute, a London-based think tank.

“The Indian defence budget is bigger on paper, the modernisation budget is bigger.”

But Beijing “delivers”. It has rapidly supplied Pakistan with armour, a jointly developed fighter jet (in the form of the JF-17 Block 3) and missile systems.

For various reasons, India’s main suppliers, Russia and France (who provide 36 per cent and 33 per cent of imports respectively) have been slower to fulfil their orders, said Dr Ladwig. India’s air force is “still operating these antiquated MiGs”, he added.

China’s foreign ministry has urged both sides to exercise restraint and avoid a full-scale war. But there will be some in Beijing hoping for further, explosive field tests.

 

[tamsen_ikard]

It's been couple of days, amid all the chaos of propaganda and misinformation, can anyone provide a summary of what happened so far?

We know the first day clearly, India launched missiles and Pakistan shot down several planes and launched their own artillery strikes. What happened afterwards?

 

[zyklon]

Not trying to be a killjoy, but someone needs to say this out loud.

The Chinese MIC, blessed by PAF competence and IAF misadventurism, has a lot to be proud about right now.

However, a single air battle doesn't make the J-10CE infallible or the Dassault Rafale unredeemable. There are going to be many, many sorties to come.

Sooner or later, might be the day after tomorrow or a decade from now, the PAF is going to lose a J-10 or two. Such is the nature and rhythm of warfare.

So let's not gloat too hard!

 

[Zahid]

PAF already admited they could shot down more, but didn't do that in case of escalation.

This is my problem with decision-making. In 2019 PAF could have put down 4 aircraft, but took only 2 shots - Mig-21 & SU-30 MKI.

2 nights ago, PAF could have shot 10-12 IAF aircraft, but chose to target only 5-6. I do not understand the value of this restraint from PAF. It reduces the effectiveness of results & signals a certain apprehension about escalation. To deal with a bully, a punch in the face is better than a slap. You put the fear of God in the other person for being evil. PAF does enjoy a psychological edge, but this obsession with restraint is not only counter-productive but an own-goal is some ways. If the other aircraft are in the air with a threat, they should be shot down.

Showing restraint in 2019 led to India making political moves without fear. Showing restraint now will also come back to us. The blow must be so hard that the other party forgets all their plans. Pakistan can not combat a certain negative perception in Western world by showing useless restraint & leadership must focus on portraying ourselves as aggressive & resilient. This world does not respect restraint. It respects power & intent.

 

[siegecrossbow]

This is my problem with decision-making. In 2019 PAF could have put down 4 aircraft, but took only 2 shots - Mig-21 & SU-30 MKI.

2 nights ago, PAF could have shot 10-12 IAF aircraft, but chose to target only 5-6. I do not understand the value of this restraint from PAF. It reduces the effectiveness of results & signals a certain apprehension about escalation. To deal with a bully, a punch in the face is better than a slap. You put the fear of God in the other person for being evil. PAF does enjoy a psychological edge, but this obsession with restraint is not only counter-productive but an own-goal is some ways. If the other aircraft are in the air with a threat, it should be shot down.

Showing restraint in 2019 led to India making political moves without fear. Showing restraint now will also come back to us. The blow must be so hard that the other party forgets all their plans. Pakistan can not combat a certain negative perception in Western world by showing useless restraint & leadership must focus on portraying ourselves as aggressive & resilient. This world does not respect restraint. It respects power & intent.

I don’t get it either. Bhakts just cover it up anyway and claim victory regardless. Much better to take down as many of you can so they don’t have as many assets to use against you in the future.

 

[Han Patriot]

This is not a intact

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PL15E is 4m long and weigh 200kg, if you watch the video, and compare the length, it was only 2m + and that guy moved it with a slight push.