J-20... The New Generation Fighter

[challenge]

Re: New Generation Fighter

PLAAF trying improve the breed choose to follow the same path like the dassault ,from mirage 2000 to two engine mirage-4000? (or F-18A to F-18C syper hornet?)
twin engine J-10,pershap? there's been rumor of twin engine J-10,during 2002 Zhuhai airshow,there CGI image of a twin engine J-10 designated as J-10C was seen in display.
But the comment by Chinese official on 4th gen. fighter also show of confidence

 

[rhino123]

Re: New Generation Fighter

You can't upgrade J-10 into a semi-stealth fighter. What do you call semi-stealth? Rafale? Rhino? The real stealth fighter are so much harder to detect. You simply can't compete with an upgraded J-10. Mind you, there probably will be numerous variants after J-10B, but China will also be developing 4th gen at the same time. I read plenty of articles online, we know CAC is working on both upgrades to J-10 and also the main contractor for the 4th gen project. They are separate projects.

Actually when I say semi-stealth, I mean, an aircraft with certain stealth feature. This would reduce the radar cross section by a large degree as compare to the J-10 that they are flying now. This is not just achieve by some RAM coating, but by actual shape and structural design. This is the first step towards real stealthy aircraft like the F22 and F35.

 

[rhino123]

Re: New Generation Fighter

I don't know why China cannot build a plane similar to F-22. Is China's college not as compete like the ones MIT, Harvard etc.. There got to be some smart students who could figure it out.

Nobody say anything about china cannot build a plane similar to F-22. ANd china's college is ranked among the best in the world (plus we do not want to go into any debate on which country produce more engineers.) It is not always intellecture that figure out something.

The main thing about an F-22 plane and the need to field them in China is not just being restrained technically, the main thing is the cost, the logistical support, the experience (or lack of it), the way to use it. Plus if China is only interested in operating in her backyard, she didn't need to worry too much about her neighbours, because none of them have F-22 like weapons, not yet anyway.

This is way, I believe China is taking the conventional steps, first by gaining experience in the development of the Gen-4 fighters in the form of J-10B and its later improved version (probably with more stealthy feature), when enough experience and skills are acquired, they will go full speed into the real stealth fighters.

In this way, they would not need to spend many needless money on something totally new and increase the production and development costs so much that it became a burden to the country's economic.

 

[Maggern]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Wasn't the F-117 designed when stealth technology was barely in its infancy too? It sure isn't any F-22, but it did do the trick against radars. I'm not sure which parts of the stealth feature are the most technologically complex to do, but certainly many other Western fighters today (aside from F-35 and F-22), as you state above, have some stealth features included. Would it be too hard for China to implement many, or at least a great deal of these?

As to whether it's based on an improved J-10 design, couldn't that just mean they chose the model that had certain similarities, "inspired", to the J-10, with delta wings and canards etc, as some of those cgis show? Didn't they talk about this when they designed the F-35 too, with Boeing taking an unconventional approach, while LM chose a more conventional design based on their earlier concepts? It still wasn't anything like taking an F-16, slapping on RAM-paint, aesthetically moving some parts and calling it good.

 

[vesicles]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Actually I think the J-10 approach is more sensible at present moment. First it is cheaper, faster and easier to achieve, there is no need to throw in heaps of money to create something totally new (no matter how effective it is), the unit price for each is going to be hell, and it would not really be effective if you only have money for a couple of this new weapons.

Unlike US, who is still playing policemen and will be playing global policemen in near future, China didn't have (at least they appear so) that ambition and so the nearest adversaries nearby is those from India, South Korea, Japan, Russia and Taiwan, and they do not really need a superplane against these nation's airforces, so by just evoluting existing aircraft to a higher standard would be enough at present moment.

I am not saying that China should or would give up the stealth project, but perhaps when the technologies are more mature, they will embark into this project with more confident.

Please note that China uptill relatively recently, then they could independently design and built modern fighters, all other samples are either basing on or direct copies with minor improvement to Russia design. Thus if I was to look at it, China might not have enough confident, industrial support and capability to embark into something as ambition as the F-22 design, no doubt they tried to do it before and is still trying at present moment.

(PS, I am not looking down or dismissing China's aviation industry, just pointing out my opinion.)

precisely because China doesn't have any urgent needs, China should take its time and come up with the best design they can find, instead of simply using an existing design that was intended for an inferior plane (I'm not saying J-10B is inferior, but compared to F-22, it is 3/3.5 generation vs. 4th generation).

 

[pla101prc]

Re: New Generation Fighter

china wont have air superiority in taiwan if USA decides to intervine, with f-22 or not.



Are you judging china´s confidence based on a staged interview?

USAF's advantage is a systematic one, only amateurs would bet the outcome of a battle on one particular weapon. however if you are talkin about Taiwan, first of all this is the wrong place, and second of all there are way too many factors involved for you to jump to conclusions, go start another thread.

there are a lot of messages you can get from an interview, PLAAF doesnt give interviews just to boast about their 4th gen fighter project. you gotta learn to read deeper than just the surface of it kid.

 

[pla101prc]

Re: New Generation Fighter

is there a single engine lightweight fighter now that can be considered 3.5 gen? i am inclined to think that f-16I and f-2 possess such dispositions. they are better than any other existing single engine fighters.

again i say the design of the Chinese 4th gen is really up to what they think is the most practical. i've read articles about Chinese expert pilots shorting on the usefulness of stealth tech. there are plenty that prefers supermaneuver over stealth. since China's engine isnt as good, they are gonna make up for it with airframe designs. its really up to what system China wants to adopt. its much easier if you develop an entire family of fighters like the Su family rather than coming up with a new design every time.so if China finalizes a design on 4th gen, they'll have to stick with it.

 

[kroko]

Re: New Generation Fighter

however if you are talkin about Taiwan, first of all this is the wrong place, and second of all there are way too many factors involved for you to jump to conclusions, go start another thread.

I was not the first to mention taiwan. Just responding. Besides, can you deny what i wrote?

there are a lot of messages you can get from an interview, PLAAF doesnt give interviews just to boast about their 4th gen fighter project. you gotta learn to read deeper than just the surface of it kid.

First, im no "kid". No insults please. Second, can you deny what i wrote?

 

[rhino123]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Actually if you come to think about it, engine and airframe, be it stealth or otherwise, is important, but so is the avionic, the control system (mechanical, digital or fly by wire). Also the missiles and weapon systems, defensive system, etc.

It is the entire package that I believe China might be wanting to look into. I might be wrong to be always focusing on the stealth feature of the project, but I think an improved variant of the J-10B might provide Chinese engineers and designer with valuable lesson and experience in designing a whole new package on an aircraft, using proven airframe, powerplant, etc. And while they are at that, the airforce tacticians and strategists might even start developing tactics using the stealth feature and new avionic and aircraft package on the said aircrafts. So it would be good to come up with something fast (by improving on the existing J-10B system) while the developer continue to design and develope a real 4 or 5 generation aircraft.

 

[Roger604]

Re: New Generation Fighter

J-20 is a delta canard, just like J-10B. It's not surprising at all since they are both designed by CAC.

Its very likely to look like this:

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Which also looks more or less the same as the famous rendering from Gaoshan.