China demographics thread.

The difference between a cultural issue and a population issue is that the former can be rectified immediately by necessity while the latter takes decades to rectify. A starving young college grad will be driven by need to set his ego aside and do menial labor until the oppertunity comes for him to begin his career. A person who does not exist... can't... and it takes 18+ years to make him exist. The latter is a much larger problem.
There is also a socio-economic issue. While you provide an example of a cultural/socio-economic issue, there is also a population issue caused by declining birth rates. There are going to be relatively less total number of people at the age where they could do physical labor in the future than today. Proportion of young people willing to do physical labor = cultural/socio-economic issue, total number of young people able to do physical labor = population issue. So while today, it may be a cultural/socio-economic issue, in the future it could be more of population issue unless...
While we are decades away from the point where automation can totally replace manual labor, we are at least as far away from requiring that due to severe labor shortage. As automation increases, like now, we can also afford to gradually decrease the physical labor supply (and hopefully replace it with educated white collar mental labor but even if some of it is replaced with nothing, we'll still carry on fine). The key is to prevent this labor supply from decreasing faster than automation can replace.
That will be one of the major challenges for China in the coming decades, overall I feel optimistic that it will be achievable. The other challenge is how to provide economic opportunities for the segments of the population that are not competitive enough for high paying STEM/white collar jobs that at the same time will not do physical labor jobs.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
There is also a socio-economic issue. While you provide an example of a cultural/socio-economic issue, there is also a population issue caused by declining birth rates. There are going to be relatively less total number of people at the age where they could do physical labor in the future than today. Proportion of young people willing to do physical labor = cultural/socio-economic issue, total number of young people able to do physical labor = population issue. So while today, it may be a cultural/socio-economic issue, in the future it could be more of population issue unless...
That's what we've been discussing for pages on end. The reduction in population needs to be mild and gradual enough such that automation can handle the reduced labor supply and it also needs to stop reducing at a certain point and maintain or begin to regrow. That will be dependent on the resources we can generate.
That will be one of the major challenges for China in the coming decades, overall I feel optimistic that it will be achievable. The other challenge is how to provide economic opportunities for the segments of the population that are not competitive enough for high paying STEM/white collar jobs that at the same time will not do physical labor jobs.
I'm very optimistic and confident in the CCP. China has so many people now and even though our total population may be at an inflection, the population of educated middle class is still growing very quickly. With improved education, I feel that very very few Chinese people are genetically too stupid to handle higher learning and work with their brains and education. For the meantime, we are so so far away from the point where automation takes away all the blue collar labor jobs, we don't have to worry about such a thing.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
It needs to change, but how? The extreme competitiveness in East Asian societies coupled with East Asian culture makes this extremely difficult. Even in the US, where there is relatively less competition, generally more relaxed cultural attitudes towards work, and a higher priority placed on work-life-balance, the trend has been moving toward longer working hours while the growth of incomes can no longer keep pace with the increases in housing costs. Looking at both the lower and higher stratum of income in the US, the number of hours worked is trending towards 996. Even with the relatively more relaxed working hours of the middle stratum of income, birth rate in US is also below replacement.



Whether you classify it as a cultural issue or a population issue, the issue still remains. China was built by a generation of hard working migrant workers from underdeveloped rural areas. You cannot expect the same from the generation of young Chinese today that grew up in one-child households in the city whom have never had to do physical labor their entire lives. Automation will dramatically reduce the amount of labor needed, but we are decades away from reaching a point where technology can entirely replace manual labor. The US is being plagued by this same issue - the US was built up by immigrants doing hard physical labor for much of its history. When immigrant labor became no longer sufficient, the cost of physical labor skyrocketed, and it becomes too expensive to build infrastructure and factories.
One thing to note: migrant workers also had lots of kids. The ones not having kids aren't the migrant workers. In fact many of them aren't doing any labor at all, menial or not, yet also not having kids. They're just doing nothing.
 

asiandemographer

New Member
Registered Member
No, hard power is always everything. The USSR was in a hard power struggle with the US. It was not dominant. If the US fell and the USSR issued an ultimatum from a position of unrivaled power for Finland to join or be attacked, Finland would join.

I think what you are mentioning is almost overwhelming power which no country is likely to achieve. If USSR, despite being such a behemoth couldn't achieve the level of hard power required to totally bring along Finland's submission and total adherence, then I don't think anyone can do that.

Let's just say that there is a trade off between hard power and soft power. Yes having insanely high hard power over anyone will ultimately lead to their acquiescence, however having some soft power - cultural, narrative, entertainment, political/legal, discourse, all of this decreases the burden that the hard power needs to take.

That's particularly true for small countries, which is why they must always seek the greater pole of hard power.

But that's not always been the case. Even small countries faced with incredible powers have fought back. Afghanistan vs USSR, Afghanistan vs US (this time they didn't even have that much external support), Vietnam vs France/US, Finland vs USSR, Cuba vs US.
 

asiandemographer

New Member
Registered Member
No, it is true; high impact papers isn't defined by only Nature and Science. That's moving the goalpost. If you keep moving the goalpost like that A will never surpass B because you can keep increasing the stringency and excluding venues at which A excels until you are at literally only 1 thing and B can hold on due to actual control of the journal.
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It would be ludicrous to solely focus on Nature and Science and ignore the other journals considered by the Nature Index...any scientist would tell you that most breakthroughs are not published in those two journals, although many are

Nature and Science are indeed the most prestigious scientific journals, but any paper published in the 145 journals considered by the Nature Index is considered elite...

Here is the list:
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I see that you're a geneticist. Perhaps most breakthroughs in that field are published in Nature and Science, but that is definitely not the case for the physical sciences. For instance:

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China is a laggard in the biological sciences, so there is still a lot of work to do on that front

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Responding to these together. I think there's been a misunderstanding here.

I am not claiming that publication in Nature/Science (flagship journals) is the only or even the most important metric to account for. In fact, these don't even publish engineering usually.

My point was that from my personal experience, highly talented Chinese students (in top universities) still stay back in the US. I gave the Nature publications as an evidence and then manually compiled all first authors in one month worth of Nature papers.

Now obviously there's been tremendous Chinese progress in many areas, and in many places they have definitely left the US behind. However, every strata of quality has its use. While China is dominant in the very good (probably top 1%) science/engineering papers, the breakthroughs (that is probably the top 0.01% papers) are still produced by US based researchers.

In my own field for example, while Chinese research is top notch, the most genuine breakthroughs in the field, like the transformers paper, AlexNet paper, ResNet paper, Word2Vec were all in the US. This is a fact, and it is not even debatable. I have heard similar things from people in biology.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I think what you are mentioning is almost overwhelming power which no country is likely to achieve. If USSR, despite being such a behemoth couldn't achieve the level of hard power required to totally bring along Finland's submission and total adherence, then I don't think anyone can do that.
The USSR is only a behemoth in barren frozen land. The population and economy were very small compared to the US and they lost the technological competition. Other than natural energy, the USSR was a midget compared to modern China in the power it commands and the challenge it poses to Western dominance.
Let's just say that there is a trade off between hard power and soft power.
That sentence right there already makes no sense. They do not conflict, rather the more dominant your hard power the easier it is to grow soft power, making it actually a nonviolent and cultural extension of hard power rather than any "soft" power at all.
Yes having insanely high hard power over anyone will ultimately lead to their acquiescence, however having some soft power - cultural, narrative, entertainment, political/legal, discourse, all of this decreases the burden that the hard power needs to take.
Soft power follows hard power; when you rule, people will want to find excuses everywhere to be happy with your rule because not doing so means they must live their lived in misery. Hence, they enamour themselves with your culture, the same culture they would ignore if you were weak and ridicule if you were a rival. So... it is not actually any soft power but a non-violent extension of hard power.
But that's not always been the case. Even small countries faced with incredible powers have fought back. Afghanistan vs USSR, Afghanistan vs US (this time they didn't even have that much external support), Vietnam vs France/US, Finland vs USSR, Cuba vs US.
It actually has nothing to do with any soft power because it fails to explain why this aura of soft power fails to apply to all nations, or at least similarly situation nations, in the same way. This is due to cultural differences within the country. My statement is the norm, and is usually the case. It is common to the extent that no examples need to be made or there would be too many cases. However, yours is very rare, only a handful of examples in the world. Just like there is a crazy/abnormal person out of every group, there are crazy countries with their own unique and rare reasons to behave illogically. To focus on the outliers and exceptions rather than the norm will miss the forest for the trees.
Responding to these together. I think there's been a misunderstanding here.

I am not claiming that publication in Nature/Science (flagship journals) is the only or even the most important metric to account for. In fact, these don't even publish engineering usually.
OK
My point was that from my personal experience, highly talented Chinese students (in top universities) still stay back in the US.
And the data I gave already proved this incorrect. The fact that China rises much faster than the US proves this incorrect. The Thousand Talents program was instituted to make this incorrect.
I gave the Nature publications as an evidence and then manually compiled all first authors in one month worth of Nature papers.
That doesn't serve as any kind of evidence in a logical way.
Now obviously there's been tremendous Chinese progress in many areas, and in many places they have definitely left the US behind. However, every strata of quality has its use. While China is dominant in the very good (probably top 1%) science/engineering papers, the breakthroughs (that is probably the top 0.01% papers) are still produced by US based researchers.
Up past a certain point, it is erroneous to continue to assume that the higher the journal ranking, the better the research. As a matter of fact, because these journals are American and many in the top 1% Western, there is further bias against China that should be considered. And of course, the actual most useful progress is not published, but quietly and secretly used. That's why Chinese progress is by far the fastest. The gains in the 1% that exceed the US are just the tip of the iceberg.
In my own field for example, while Chinese research is top notch, the most genuine breakthroughs in the field, like the transformers paper, AlexNet paper, ResNet paper, Word2Vec were all in the US. This is a fact, and it is not even debatable. I have heard similar things from people in biology.
There are many fields where China is ahead of the US, peer with the US, and catching up to the US. There is no reason to believe that the competition is over and the US is defeated.

1. Despite what you see in your field, it's basically written on the walls at this point that the US has no chance to keep pace with China in the tech war and even with the recruitment of all its henchmen, it's unlikely to make a difference in the end.

2. What is the purpose of your statement, to note that the US is still top in some areas of research? How does this pertain to the demographics discussion?
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Responding to these together. I think there's been a misunderstanding here.

I am not claiming that publication in Nature/Science (flagship journals) is the only or even the most important metric to account for. In fact, these don't even publish engineering usually.

My point was that from my personal experience, highly talented Chinese students (in top universities) still stay back in the US. I gave the Nature publications as an evidence and then manually compiled all first authors in one month worth of Nature papers.

Now obviously there's been tremendous Chinese progress in many areas, and in many places they have definitely left the US behind. However, every strata of quality has its use. While China is dominant in the very good (probably top 1%) science/engineering papers, the breakthroughs (that is probably the top 0.01% papers) are still produced by US based researchers.

In my own field for example, while Chinese research is top notch, the most genuine breakthroughs in the field, like the transformers paper, AlexNet paper, ResNet paper, Word2Vec were all in the US. This is a fact, and it is not even debatable. I have heard similar things from people in biology.
IDK much about AI. But I do know how to type and occasionally move a mouse.

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. Can you show me something that shows it isn't?

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was published by
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- but Microsoft Research Asia in Beijing. This is shown by the lead author
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being affiliated with Microsoft Research Asia in Beijing at the time,
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and
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Are these the best examples? In Example 1, neither the institution, researchers nor location were American. In Example 2, the institution was American, but the researchers and location was not. In Example 3, the initial idea was not made by an American or at a US institution.
 

azn_cyniq

Junior Member
Registered Member
Responding to these together. I think there's been a misunderstanding here.

I am not claiming that publication in Nature/Science (flagship journals) is the only or even the most important metric to account for. In fact, these don't even publish engineering usually.

My point was that from my personal experience, highly talented Chinese students (in top universities) still stay back in the US. I gave the Nature publications as an evidence and then manually compiled all first authors in one month worth of Nature papers.

Now obviously there's been tremendous Chinese progress in many areas, and in many places they have definitely left the US behind. However, every strata of quality has its use. While China is dominant in the very good (probably top 1%) science/engineering papers, the breakthroughs (that is probably the top 0.01% papers) are still produced by US based researchers.

In my own field for example, while Chinese research is top notch, the most genuine breakthroughs in the field, like the transformers paper, AlexNet paper, ResNet paper, Word2Vec were all in the US. This is a fact, and it is not even debatable. I have heard similar things from people in biology.
In the grand scheme of things, your personal experience doesn't matter. The data tells us that most Chinese students in the US return to China. Some members of this forum already know that I attended a top 3 university (US News) for my undergraduate studies and I am currently at a top 10 university for my graduate studies. The best Chinese graduate students I met at these universities went back to China to become professors or researchers. Some of them stayed in the US to work for companies like Meta and Google, but most of the ones I met went back to China. I wouldn't extrapolate my personal experience to the rest of the Chinese students in the US, as I've only met a small percentage of them.

I agree that most recent breakthroughs in the field of computer science are not from China, but ResNet was literally invented in China. Are you really a researcher in this field? This is one of the most well-known papers in the field:
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In other fields, especially the physical sciences, many breakthroughs do come from China. China's dominance in batteries and photovoltaics wasn't an accident. Feel free to take a look at journals such as ACS Nano, Advanced Functional Materials, Nano Letters, Applied Physics Letters, etc.
 

resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's what we've been discussing for pages on end. The reduction in population needs to be mild and gradual enough such that automation can handle the reduced labor supply and it also needs to stop reducing at a certain point and maintain or begin to regrow. That will be dependent on the resources we can generate.

I'm very optimistic and confident in the CCP. China has so many people now and even though our total population may be at an inflection, the population of educated middle class is still growing very quickly. With improved education, I feel that very very few Chinese people are genetically too stupid to handle higher learning and work with their brains and education. For the meantime, we are so so far away from the point where automation takes away all the blue collar labor jobs, we don't have to worry about such a thing.
I think Chinese best population should be around 500-700 millions. It can retain 1.4 billions if this project commence. I really wish for this.
 

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jli88

New Member
Registered Member
I think Chinese best population should be around 500-700 millions. It can retain 1.4 billions if this project commence. I really wish for this.

With current annual births, the long term sustainable population has already reduced to around 700 million. (9 million annual births, life expectancy of say 80 years = 720 million).

However, the birth rates are decreasing fast!
 
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