Crisis in the Ukraine

Discussion in 'Members' Club Room' started by bd popeye, Jul 14, 2014.

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  1. t2contra
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    t2contra Major

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    They were referring to direct involvement.
     
  2. Jeff Head
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    Jeff Head General
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    The issue and point of my post, Sampan, and with your post, is not the offenses in Ukraine. Of course the situation in combat during a bloody civil war is offensive, and we all pray it ends and that a cease fore and peace hold.

    The issue is your comparing what is happening there in Eastern Ukraine...where there is a bloody civil war, with heavy handiness, atrocities and offense on both sides...with a civil issue and looting in Ferguson Missouri.

    What has gone on in Ukraine is not comparable at all...in the least...to what happened in Ferguson.

    It is that comparison which I am speaking of as being offensive and wholly disproportionate.

    I hope you can see that, and step back from the rhetoric and disproportionate comparison.

    Using that as a pretext to demand or seek support for a certain side in the Ukraine is not something we should be doing here on SD, particularly from one, as a Super Moderator, who will be seen as speaking for SD. Please do not use such a comparison as a pulpit to preach one side of this issue.

    That does not negate the offensive nature of what has occurred in the Ukraine in the least...but it is a wholly inappropriate comparison and is causing inflammation beyond the Ukraine issue.

    ...which is, once again, something, IMHO, we should not do here on SD.
     
    #1512 Jeff Head, Oct 26, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  3. SampanViking
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    SampanViking The Capitalist
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    Jeff you are indignant about an illustrative allusion in which I have highlighted both parties and a political mindset that would countenance using them, to your country and found the closest possible situation to which to apply it. You are angry and offended.
    This illustration however, pales into insignificance when compared to the reality of these parties and this political mindset, as exercised in the Ukraine. Maybe Jeff, through the indignation you feel at an analogy, you will finally have a sense of how furious, we on this side of the argument, are at the reality.

    Why does it matter?
    Because the Ukraine is of course not simply a civil war. This is not a contest between local rival political groups, a tribal conflict or a religious schism. This is an engineered situation designed to bring these very people, into our Political Union and our Defence Alliance. These vile groups are being armed, aided and abetted in our name.

    Well to quote the old Movie "I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it any more"

    If your not, frankly, you should be.
     
    #1513 SampanViking, Oct 26, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  4. Jeff Head
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    Because that comparison is not even remotely related...and to try and do so is simply using rhetoric to try and influence others thoughts on the matter.

    Not only does it pale in comparison, it is wholly unrelated.

    And THIS is the crux of the matter and why your analogy is offensive, Sampan. You are using it to try and manipulate the thinking of others. That sort of thing will simply not work.

    I am mad about the entire situation, Sampan, but I recognize that there are two sides to the coin and that in a bloody civil war like this there always will be and you and I squabbling or voicing rhetoric over it are not going to change anything.

    In addition to that, SD is not the place to even try.

    It is tragic, it is a shame...but you and I picking sides and harping about it, trying to either bully or shame one side or another to "see it our way," is simply not going to work.

    That's the truth.

    In the mean time, as Super Moderators on SD, a forum that is principally about Military Technology and weapons systems, particularly Chinese ones, to delve into the deep ideological differences in such a discussion is not only not going to solve anything, IMHO, it is inappropriate and will only going to set SD members against one another.

    IMHO, that's not what we want.

    Well, I have had my say. I believe this type of talk is wrong on SD and hope you will reconsider...not your own personal feelings and views of the situation because you are completely entitled to those...but the propriety of airing them and getting into arguments here on SD about it.

    I believe it is not what the vast majority of our posters come here to discuss.

    I am VERY opinionated on my political and ideological views...but I find other place to share, debate, and discuss those. I do not believe we want SD to become such a place.

    I'll leave it at that.
     
  5. SampanViking
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    SampanViking The Capitalist
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    I am happy to argue the facts Jeff, but not argue the argument.

    Just remember that this war and the sanctions associated with them are biting people in the real world and raising the temperature in all sorts of surprising ways.

    The Ukraine is a world issue, critical to Europe and critical to China in both economic and security aspects.

    You will note that much of this previous thread has been the process where many of us have researched and presented a narrative on the course of this conflict which has been:

    a) Fully at odds with the establishment narrative of our countries

    b) Proved to be far more accurate that the aforementioned establishment narrative.

    SDF is the only forum where we are able to come together and do this and so to stop would simply now be to acquiesce to a narrative that has shown itself highly subjective and deeply inaccurate.
     
  6. delft
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    From LATimes:
    Ukraine troops struggle with nation's longtime neglect of military - LA Times
    A good example of main stream media reporting. Look at the opening:
    So the Russian colomns were invisible to satellites and drones and the border guard base and after Bereza had been cut off they disappeared into thin air to leave the encirclement to snipers during five days.
    More likely is that the soldiers sent to support him didn't like to fight their countrymen.

    And look at this:
    Russia with a population about three times that of Ukraine and with a much larger border and many more neighors is spending less than three time what Ukraine is spending. The explanation must be that Ukraine has been and continues to be much more corrupt than Russia. And what do you expects from a country run by oligarchs for oligarchs. Even if they organize elections as they do today the power will not get into more responsible hands.

    The whole article is worth close reading.
     
  7. SampanViking
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    The election results are coming in now from the Rada General Election

    BBC News - Ukraine elections: Pro-Western parties set for victory

    We still haver to wait and see how exactly has made it in and who has not, but the two biggest shares of the vote go to parties and blocs of Yatsenyuk and Poroschenko respectively.

    The turn out is given at 52% which is low even by the less then stella records of the Ukraine.
    The devil however could well be in the detail, which the BBC is glossing over through the phrase

    The implication being given is that the effects of rebel held territory is responsible for the low vote in the East. Well obviously it would a lot of voters from Donetsk and Lugansk, but this is apparently only a part of the story.
    I am still waiting to find formal confirmation on this, but several sources are citing that turnout in all the main Russian regions from Kharkov to Odessa was only in the mid teens.

    If this is so, then it would be very interesting news. In very general terms, if your turnout is in the thirties or forties, then you have substantial apathy. If however the turnout is either very high or incredibly low, then you have very real determination to achieve such figures.

    If indeed over 80% of voters in the Russian speaking areas; generally associated with the territory dubbed "Novorossiya" did not participate but determinedly boycotted the poll, it does raise questions as to whether this is a temporary signal of serious dissatisfaction with the current political process or a more permanent rejection of Kiev and of the Ukraine being a country to which they belong. If so it is a major swing away from six months ago and could easily change the calculus in the Kremlin as to which solution to the Ukraine problem is now the most practical.
     
  8. Dannhill
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    The chief Dutch prosecutor investigating the MH17 had stated that they are open to the possibility that the airliner was brought down by another plane.
    They will work with Russia which was all the time excluded from the investigation. (Very strange in the first place, imo).

    http://rt.com/news/199891-dutch-investigation-mh17-crash/
     
  9. SampanViking
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  10. delft
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    Yesterday I spoke a Dutch Senator who has been on Maidan early this year and he said that fascists were prominently present. And they remained until driven out by the police a few weeks ago. So Biden, Ashton and Timmermans, to name just a few, must have seen them and so must have the journalists of the main stream media.
    The elections gave the expected results. The parties of the oligarchs got most votes, the fascist parties many of the others and the turn out was "modest".
     
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