Yue Fei vs Genghis Khan

maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
cliveersknell said:
Please look at wikipedia for the sizes of all chinese dynasties, the grouping I proposed therefore holds water. The ROC controlled manchuria , inner mongolia , xinjiang , and tibet only in name . Inner Mongolia was controlled by mongolian warlords such as Deh Wang, manchuria was controlled by warlords Zhang Zuolin and Xueliang, Xinjiang and Gansu and Qinghai was controlled by warlord Ma Bufeng, Tibet was under the Dalai Lama, with no control from Nanjing whatsoever.
Regarding the 500,000 Ming KIA at Tumu, this is a fact, and reflected in many history books and papers, it was a massive defeat of the Ming army by the Oirad Mongols. The Ming army was led by the ZhengZhong emperor and his chief minister, they trekked all the way from Beijing to Datong, the Oirads kept watch and kept a distance, they were more mobile than the Ming army. they attacked the supply columns whenever a chance arised, they abandoned the siege of Datong when the Ming army arrived, the Ming army did not stay long and decided to return to Beijing, this was when the Oirad struck, they hit the Ming rearguard and wiped it out totally, the emperor panicked and fled with his palace guard to Tumu, the rest of the Ming army was scattered to the winds without any leadership, and was cut piece by piece by the Oirads. The remainder was cornered at Tumu, and slaughtered, with the exception of the emperor.
This defeat was the big turning point of the Ming , in 1449, the Ming suspended all naval activities to meet the Oirad threat. The Oirads even laid siege to Bejing, were it not for an able minister , Yu Qian, the Oirads would have taken Beijing and revived the Yuan.
Nevertheless, the Oirads later returned the Zhengzhong emperor, and he executed Yu Qian.
The PRC made many miniseries about China's history, but unlike Taiwan, HK or Singapore, they had a more fair and unbiased view, they praised great nomadic leaders like Genghis, Nurhaci, Abahai ( Hong Taiji), Altan Khan, Khubilai, Moengke, Songtsenganpo, Drisong Netzong ( Yarlung emperor who burned Changan after Tang's fall), etc... they were also very critical of the Han based dynasties. I watched the Han Wudi miniseries, and they criticized Han wudi for destroying the Han's local economy by breeding horse farms to field his cavalry against the Xiongnu, they also criticized his attitude towards his generals and veterans, and his lack of long term plan to consolidate, integrate and repopulate the conquere Xiongnu territories, when the XIongnu were gone, a new nomadic threat came , the Xianbei, they later occupied territories of the Xiongnu and established the Toba Wei dynasty in northern China.
r's
Clive
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Qing Dynasty controlled Mongolia,Tibet only the named, Qing army never stationed in both area.
They simply succumbed to the Qing Dynasty.
in Tan Dynasty, so many naions and area succumbed to Tan Dynasty. please see Tan Dynasty territory in the map.

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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
cliveersknell said:
Nevertheless, the Nanjing gov't of Chiang, was helpless against these warlords, the called the shots in their territories. Chiang has the great honor of joining the team of lame ducks in chinese history.
Mao, Genghis, Nurhaci, Khubilai, Deng, HongTaiji,... belong to one distinct league of winners.
r's
Clive
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I noticed how you didn't mention Han, Tang, and Ming.

vesicles said:
I don't think the Mongols were absorbed by Qing. And Mongols had always been highly independent from the Qing empire. It had been a custom for Qing emperors to have Queens fromMongolia because Qing wanted help from the powerful Mongol cavalry and one way to align themselves with the Mongols was to intermarry with them. So strictly speaking, it was actually the other way around: Qing was begging for help from the Mongols. And in early Qing dynasty, whenever Qing emperors had trouble, they turned to the Mongols for help.
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Where did you get that? I seriously doubt the Manchu ever trusted the Mongols enough to use them more than as just auxiliaries. The main force of the Manchu had always been the 8 flag armies, and later on the Han Flag armies.

Also, Kangxi fought several wars to quell rebellions in both Mongolia and Tibet.

Besides, in the Ming/Qing dynasties, with the more widespread use of canons and advancement in ranged weapons, I think the Mongol fighting styles became a lot less effective.

Qing Dynasty controlled Mongolia,Tibet only the named, Qing army never stationed in both area.
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I'm pretty sure the Qing did station a garrison in Tibet. How else would they have gotten evicted from there in the 1910s?
 
S

Schumacher

Senior Member
solarz said:
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One thing I've never been clear on is just how much did the Southern Song contribute to her own demise by helping the Mongols attack the Jin? Would the Mongols have had much difficulty conquering the Jin without Song's help?
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The Song helped the Mongols the most by simply being at the end of the typical lifespan of a Chinese dynasty, wrecked by corruption and desertion.
The greatest khan, Genghis Khan, who swept Asia and Europe couldn't do anything to the Song at its prime. It was left to his grandson Kublai who was at the right place and the right time when Song fell.
 
maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
I'm pretty sure the Qing did station a garrison in Tibet. How else would they have gotten evicted from there in the 1910s?
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Qing dynasity sent only a minister of a long-term presence in Tibet, to show respect for sovereignty over Tibet, a garrison for the minister.
I mean Qing didn't station army to control Tibet.this word for refuting some one said Ming Dynasity and ROC has never control Tibet.
in fact, Tibet leaders accepted Ming dynasity recognition and titles.
 
maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
Schumacher said:
The Song helped the Mongols the most by simply being at the end of the typical lifespan of a Chinese dynasty, wrecked by corruption and desertion.
The greatest khan, Genghis Khan, who swept Asia and Europe couldn't do anything to the Song at its prime. It was left to his grandson Kublai who was at the right place and the right time when Song fell.
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also,Mongolian cavalry, in southern China there is no advantage, Southern Song Dynasty got Yangtze River to block the enemy from the north, in North China, Jin dynasty blocked Mongolia.
It is ironic that the Song - Yuan last big battle was at sea, Mongolian fleet, even defeated the the fleet of Southern Song .
all of the Song people to resist the Mongol invasion,since the Mongol brutality,looting,slaughter.
Xiangyang City襄阳城 troops and people, desperate to resisted the Mongols,they had persisted for many years, but there was no other troops came to support them,finally, the Mongols trained the fleet ready, they along Yangtze river to attacked the fortress from behind and distroyed it.
in Sichuan, a fortress and only a few thousand troops, all of the people in the city, participated in resistance,several ten thousand of Mongole troops to attacked the fortress but could not distoy it, there was no other troops come to suport them, they had persisted in resistance for two years,the Mongolian emperor蒙哥 personally involved in combat, but he died in the battle.(after he died,Kublai became Mongolian)
so,how about Song dynasty emperors? they only enjoyed the life at palace in Hangzhou,笙哥燕舞dancing and drinking,played with beauties.后宫佳丽三千
why did the Three Kingdoms era, Sun Quan and Liu Bei,in Red cluff, could defeat much more powerful of Cao Cao, but Song could not defeat Mongols?
because Sun Quan and Liu Bei were capable rulers,but the Southern Song emperors were a group of waste.not only the emperors, the entire unified rule of class, are corrupt.
In addition to Yue Fei, there were no other competent generals? of caurse not,the emperors would trust them?
the first emperor of Song dynasty Zhao Kuang Ren, launched a military coup to become the emperor,陈桥兵变 so, Song dynasty emperors afraid of this.
Han dynasty defeated Huns匈奴,Tan dynasty defeated Turky,both Han and Tan troops took the initiative to the enemy attack,they fought far away in Mongolia,both Huns and Turky were powerful nomads, both of them got more then 200,000 caralry.
both Han and Tan in the beginning of establish, the country were poor and weak, but both dynasty could become powerful and defeated the nomads, and Huns and Turky had swept across the Eurasian continent.
 
petty officer1

petty officer1

Junior Member
It is ironic that the Song - Yuan last big battle was at sea, Mongolian fleet, even defeated the the fleet of Southern Song .
all of the Song people to resist the Mongol invasion,since the Mongol brutality,looting,slaughter.
Xiangyang City襄阳城 troops and people, desperate to resisted the Mongols,they had persisted for many years, but there was no other troops came to support them,finally, the Mongols trained the fleet ready, they along Yangtze river to attacked the fortress from behind and distroyed it.
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I might not be correct, but if I remember correctly from my chinese history Xiangyang city was not destoried by the Mongol naval forces, Xiangyang after many years underseige, (The Song court stopped sending supply because they thought Xiangyang was lost, every time they send reinforcement it was repelled).

Main reasons for Xiangyang City's defeat was due to the numerical advantage of Mongols and introduction of Persian/Muslim Siege weapons deployed in the later part of the seige. (which can launch rocks that weight as much as 500Kg which terrified the Song army in the city).

Mongol then offered the defenders terms to either surrender or face slaugter of the whole city. The Song general ran out of supply and food surrendered, saving the death of thousands still left in the city.

The Naval engagement you mentioned happened after the defeat at Xiangyang city. (Which is ironic since the Mongols were led by a Chinese General.)
 
maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
petty officer1 said:
I might not be correct, but if I remember correctly from my chinese history Xiangyang city was not destoried by the Mongol naval forces, Xiangyang after many years underseige, (The Song court stopped sending supply because they thought Xiangyang was lost, every time they send reinforcement it was repelled).

Main reasons for Xiangyang City's defeat was due to the numerical advantage of Mongols and introduction of Persian/Muslim Siege weapons deployed in the later part of the seige. (which can launch rocks that weight as much as 500Kg which terrified the Song army in the city).

Mongol then offered the defenders terms to either surrender or face slaugter of the whole city. The Song general ran out of supply and food surrendered, saving the death of thousands still left in the city.

The Naval engagement you mentioned happened after the defeat at Xiangyang city. (Which is ironic since the Mongols were led by a Chinese General.)
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Xiangyang supply by water.
Mongols captured Xiangyang city, the main reasons, Mogol trained the fleets ready, Song In this regard, it should be advantage, lost this advantage, that is failure.
Because of this, which leads to Xangyang was surrounded, loss of supply.
also, Mongols feets not only block the supply, and block other Song troops support, there were other 100,000 Song troops, if they came to attack the Mongol army, launching boulders weapons attack is no longer a problem.
last,Xiangyang distroyed by Mongols both attack, Frontal army attack and the fleets attack behind from the water.
Southern Song ruler did no thing, this is big reason.
 
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