Yue Fei vs Genghis Khan

The Ming suppressed the Mongol threat pretty well IIRC.

I think people are mis-characterizing the Mongol's tactics as "hit and run". That's only sort of true. They would fight large, set piece battles, but they wouldn't usually allow melee fighting to happen until they were already assured of victory.

The Mongol's strength lay in using their superior horses and superior subordinate commanders (Yue Fei might be a better general than Genghis Khan, but he would have to rely on several subordinate commanders that would almost certainly be outmatched by their Mongol counterparts) to fire masses of arrows at their enemies from horseback, and then they would flee when the enemy advanced, all the while still firing. Their enemies would run out of energy chasing the disparate Mongol units, and the organization of the enemy force would dissolve, ensuring units were isolated and flanks were exposed. The Mongols could then turn and attack, and use their heavy cavalry.

These tactics worked quite well against the large organized armies of the day, and it was very hard to counter them.

Finn McCool said:

The Mongol's strength lay in using their superior horses and superior subordinate commanders (Yue Fei might be a better general than Genghis Khan, but he would have to rely on several subordinate commanders that would almost certainly be outmatched by their Mongol counterparts) to fire masses of arrows at their enemies from horseback, and then they would flee when the enemy advanced, all the while still firing. Their enemies would run out of energy chasing the disparate Mongol units, and the organization of the enemy force would dissolve, ensuring units were isolated and flanks were exposed. The Mongols could then turn and attack, and use their heavy cavalry.

These tactics worked quite well against the large organized armies of the day, and it was very hard to counter them.

Click to expand...

Not if you had missile weapons with superior range (i.e. crossbows and longbows), and disciplined formations with shields and pikes.

cliveersknell said:

The Mongols were absorbed by the Qing, and there was one great woman , Xiaozhuang, or Buumbutai, of the Khorchin Mongols, consort of Hong taiji, who became the most powerful person in the Qing after Hong Taiji's death. She became the mentor to Fu Ying and later to the great Kangxi, who was one of China's greatest emperors.
The Manchus by the way also adopted the Mongol script, rather than their old Jurchen or Jin script. So, you see the mongol legacy lived on till today.
Do a simple mathematical analysis, group all of China's dynasties as follows:
1. Group A- Qin, Han , Sui, Tang, Song, Ming, Republic of China
2. Group B - Yuan, Qing, PRC
You can see two distinct distributions. Beginning with the Yuan, you see China's present day borders beginning to come into shape, this was further reinforced by the Qing and later by the PRC.
GroupA never controlled territory beyond the great wall, Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, etc..
The name the Mongols chose for their dynasty " Yuan" is most appropriate, because here you have a phase transistion, hence a " new beginning " wherein China's size , shape and demography was set, the Ming lost it , the QIng regained it, ROC lost it, and PRC regained it. Food for thought.
r's
Clive

Click to expand...

some opinion incorrect.
Han dynasty,after Emperor Han Wu汉武帝defeated the Huns匈奴, Han dispatch of troops stationed in Xinjiang Inashi伊梨.after the defeat of the Huns, Inner Mongolia is also a sphere of influence of the Han Dynasty. and controlled Liaodong中国东北,and used to take Korea, Vietnam.
Shui and Tan dynasty also controlled inner Mongolia, Shui and Tan both first Emperors Shui WenDy,Tang Gaozu were born in inner Mongolia.Sui and Tan Dynasty, have defeated the Turkish invasion, to ensure that Inner Mongolia, China's sphere of influence, and Shui and Tan controlled Liaodon.
Ming Dynasty controlled Liaodon (Manchuria),in most parts of Manchuria, Ming Dynasty sent officials from the administration.Nurhachi努尔克赤 was originally a subsidiary of the Ming Dynasty, which he later betrayed the Ming dynasty, the occupation of Manchuria.
ROC controll North East China ( Manchuria),untill Japanese invaded and took in 1931, but ROC took back in 1945.
ROC also controlled inner Mongolia, its called Suiyuan province绥远省,General Fu Tso-yi 傅作义troops controlled.
ROC called Xinjiang provice, the Xinjiang governor appointed by the central government administration.also some ROC troops in Xinjiang.

cliveersknell said:

The Ming fought 25 campaigns against the northern yuan, the result is the massive defeat and slaughter of 500,000 men as well as the capture of the Zhengtong emperor at Tumu. Watch miniseries " 1449..." .
r's
Clive

Click to expand...

The Ming Dynasty is the result of a popular Han uprising against the Mongols that drived the Mongol back to the prairie. Since then Ming conducted on-and-off offensive campaigns against the Mongols. The 1449 fiasco was largely due to incompetent command by a eunuch and the emperor's hubris that led half a million army into a death trap. It also marks the end of Ming's attempt to conquer the north prairie. In the following two hundred years until the demise of Ming dynasty, the two sides larges enjoyed some kind of peace, or at least détente.

solarz said:

Not if you had missile weapons with superior range (i.e. crossbows and longbows), and disciplined formations with shields and pikes.

Click to expand...

Well, heavy infantry traditionally didn't do too well against the steppe nomad's style of fighting. But I think you've got the right idea. You need to be able to hold them off with missile fire and try to bring them to melee. Light cavalry is useful in that situation. Most important though is discipline, a good general, and superior numbers, if you want to beat the steppe nomads, you got to be able to rein them in and bring them to a decisive battle on your terms.

Please look at wikipedia for the sizes of all chinese dynasties, the grouping I proposed therefore holds water. The ROC controlled manchuria , inner mongolia , xinjiang , and tibet only in name . Inner Mongolia was controlled by mongolian warlords such as Deh Wang, manchuria was controlled by warlords Zhang Zuolin and Xueliang, Xinjiang and Gansu and Qinghai was controlled by warlord Ma Bufeng, Tibet was under the Dalai Lama, with no control from Nanjing whatsoever.
Regarding the 500,000 Ming KIA at Tumu, this is a fact, and reflected in many history books and papers, it was a massive defeat of the Ming army by the Oirad Mongols. The Ming army was led by the ZhengZhong emperor and his chief minister, they trekked all the way from Beijing to Datong, the Oirads kept watch and kept a distance, they were more mobile than the Ming army. they attacked the supply columns whenever a chance arised, they abandoned the siege of Datong when the Ming army arrived, the Ming army did not stay long and decided to return to Beijing, this was when the Oirad struck, they hit the Ming rearguard and wiped it out totally, the emperor panicked and fled with his palace guard to Tumu, the rest of the Ming army was scattered to the winds without any leadership, and was cut piece by piece by the Oirads. The remainder was cornered at Tumu, and slaughtered, with the exception of the emperor.
This defeat was the big turning point of the Ming , in 1449, the Ming suspended all naval activities to meet the Oirad threat. The Oirads even laid siege to Bejing, were it not for an able minister , Yu Qian, the Oirads would have taken Beijing and revived the Yuan.
Nevertheless, the Oirads later returned the Zhengzhong emperor, and he executed Yu Qian.
The PRC made many miniseries about China's history, but unlike Taiwan, HK or Singapore, they had a more fair and unbiased view, they praised great nomadic leaders like Genghis, Nurhaci, Abahai ( Hong Taiji), Altan Khan, Khubilai, Moengke, Songtsenganpo, Drisong Netzong ( Yarlung emperor who burned Changan after Tang's fall), etc... they were also very critical of the Han based dynasties. I watched the Han Wudi miniseries, and they criticized Han wudi for destroying the Han's local economy by breeding horse farms to field his cavalry against the Xiongnu, they also criticized his attitude towards his generals and veterans, and his lack of long term plan to consolidate, integrate and repopulate the conquere Xiongnu territories, when the XIongnu were gone, a new nomadic threat came , the Xianbei, they later occupied territories of the Xiongnu and established the Toba Wei dynasty in northern China.
r's
Clive

cliveersknell said:

The Mongols were absorbed by the Qing, and there was one great woman , Xiaozhuang, or Buumbutai, of the Khorchin Mongols, consort of Hong taiji, who became the most powerful person in the Qing after Hong Taiji's death. She became the mentor to Fu Ying and later to the great Kangxi, who was one of China's greatest emperors.
Clive

Click to expand...

I don't think the Mongols were absorbed by Qing. And Mongols had always been highly independent from the Qing empire. It had been a custom for Qing emperors to have Queens from Mongolia because Qing wanted help from the powerful Mongol cavalry and one way to align themselves with the Mongols was to intermarry with them. So strictly speaking, it was actually the other way around: Qing was begging for help from the Mongols. And in early Qing dynasty, whenever Qing emperors had trouble, they turned to the Mongols for help.

cliveersknell said:

Please look at wikipedia for the sizes of all chinese dynasties, the grouping I proposed therefore holds water. The ROC controlled manchuria , inner mongolia , xinjiang , and tibet only in name . Inner Mongolia was controlled by mongolian warlords such as Deh Wang, manchuria was controlled by warlords Zhang Zuolin and Xueliang, Xinjiang and Gansu and Qinghai was controlled by warlord Ma Bufeng, Tibet was under the Dalai Lama, with no control from Nanjing whatsoever.
Clive

Click to expand...

In the case of Zhang Zuolin, I don't think for a moment that Zhang Zuolin actually thought he was not Chinese. These were CHINESE war lords. They might not like each other and might very much want to kill all the others, but all of them had no doubt that they were all Chinese, just like in the case of Zhou dynasty.

The names of the govn't, such as ROC, was very tricky at that time. Because there had been many changes in govn't in the time between 1911 and 1930's and no one had full control of the entire China. ROC didn't become the official name of China and the Nationalists didn't become the official ruling party of China until early 1930's when Zhang Xueliang combined his forces with those of Jiang Jieshi. Before that ROC could hardly be considered the official Chinese govn't. Especially in the 20's when the Nationalists only occupied Guangdong, merely one province out of 30 provinces. And the official govn't of China at that time was Yuan Shikai. In fact, during that time, the nationalists were actually considered as rebels. And Nanjing did not become the capital until late 20's and early 30's after the successful Northern Expedition. So using that era to argue the size of China is very misleading.

Nevertheless, the Nanjing gov't of Chiang, was helpless against these warlords, the called the shots in their territories. Chiang has the great honor of joining the team of lame ducks in chinese history.
Mao, Genghis, Nurhaci, Khubilai, Deng, HongTaiji,... belong to one distinct league of winners.
r's
Clive

There were two great Mongol unifications after the fall of Yuan.
1. One led by the Oirads under Essen .
2. The 2nd led by Dayan and succeeded by Altan Khan of Tumaats.
The Mongols became equal partners with the Qing.
r's
Clive