Why don't they buy other attack sub?

chicket9

New Member
Save $$$$, don't buy submarines,

Rather PLAN buy an Ivan Rogev LPD or two (if they are in a sailable condition), any LSTs that the Russians still have around and are for sale, hovercraft like the Aist class, and LCVP technology.

A Chinese purchase of one Ivan Rogev, several Aist cushion craft, and half a dozen LSTs would be more useful than one SSN that probably would be on a least term, old, and needs constant attention.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
In terms of numbers, the PLAN is not short of attack subs. They have at least 6 SSN's and numerous domestic and imported SSK's. What the PLAN lacks is SSBN's and SSGN's.

Currently the PLAN only has 1 obsolete Type 092 Xia-class SSBN, armed with 12 medium range JL-1A SLBM's, and one Type 094 under eval/testing. The PLAN SSBN fleet does not offer a credible secondary strike/deterrance value vs. other nuclear powers.

In comparison, the Russian Navy, as of June 2000, is said to operate 26 SSBN's with 440 SLBM's & 2,275 warheads total. The USN operates 14x Ohio-class SSBN's with 336 Trident SLBM's, the French has 4-5 SSBN's (4x Triophant & 1x Redoutable) and the British 4 x Vanguard class SSBN's.

The British Navy's Vanguard class SSBN carry 16 Trident II D-5 SLBM's per boat. Each SLBM can carry up to 8 warheads, but the British has self-imposed limit of 48 warheads per sub. Even with the self-imposed limit, a single RN Vanguard-class SSBN still carries more destructive power than the entire PLAN SSBN "fleet". This is a short-coming that the PLAN should address ASAP.

=========

On SSGN capability, the PLAN is also very lacking. The USN has Ohio-class SSGN conversion boats that can carry 154 Tomahawk SLCM's per boat, the 688i Los Angeles class SSN & Virginia class SSN has 12-tube VLS system for Tomahawks, and the Seawolf class SSN can carry up to 50 torpedos & Tomahawks. The Russian Navy have Oscar II class SSGN's that can carry SS-N-19 & SS-N-16's. The British RN's Swiftsure, Trafalgar, & Astute attack subs will be equipped with Tomahawk SLCM's.

The PLAN sub fleet toda does not appear to have land-attack SLCM capability. This could be partly attributed to lack of mature SLCM/LACM platforms. Retrofitting old SSN/SSK's for SLCM gives the submarine a whole new capability. For example, the HMS Splendid, built in 1979, was an old SSN. But by adding the Tomahawk SLCM, she was able to perform land-attack missions in Kosovo war and Gulf War 2.
 
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sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
PLAN is in need in terms of SLBMs and SSBNs, but as for SSGNs, I think China can soon solve that. China has already gotten the technology for launching missiles underwater, and is nearing the commissioning of their own curise missile, if not done so already. I don't think it will be long before China successfully makes a SLCM, giving way to SSGNs(type 93?) and SSGs(Song and Yuan?)

Speculations are already made for such, if I am right.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
sumdud said:
PLAN is in need in terms of SLBMs and SSBNs, but as for SSGNs, I think China can soon solve that. China has already gotten the technology for launching missiles underwater, and is nearing the commissioning of their own curise missile, if not done so already. I don't think it will be long before China successfully makes a SLCM, giving way to SSGNs(type 93?) and SSGs(Song and Yuan?)
Speculations are already made for such, if I am right.

It's prolly not difficult to upgrade existing PLAN subs for torpedo-tube launched cruise missiles, but the firing rate will be slow comparred to dedicated VLS system.

IMO the primary anti-ship weapon of submarines today, should be cruise missiles and not torpedos. Torpedos are still useful for self-defense vs. other subs, but its limited range (10km-20km?) makes it a "short arm" comparred to 500 km range cruise missile.

The American BGM-109B TASM/SLCM, for example, is a submarine-launched anti-ship vairant of the Tomahawk cruise missile with 1,000 lb (450 kg) warhead and range of 460 km:

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The BGM-109B (later RGM/UGM-109B) TASM was developed concurrently with the BGM-109A TLAM-N, and was actually the first variant to be deployed in operational status. Instead of TERCOM (which is obviously useless over water), the TASM uses a radar guidance system very similar to that of the AGM/RGM/UGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile, including the latter's strapdown three-axis attitude/heading reference system and AN/DSQ-28 J-band active radar seeker. The missile is launched in the general direction of the target and at some distance from the expected target position, it enters a serpentine flight pattern to search for it using both passive radar to scan enemy emissions and active radar to lock on a detected target. Once the seeker has locked on a target, the RGM/UGM-109B proceeds towards it at very low altitude (sea-skimming). Manoeuvers after lock-on can include short pop-ups to get a better fix on the target position and/or course changes to strike the target from an unexpected direction. The missile is armed with a 450 kg (1000 lb) WDU-25/B high-explosive blast-fragmentation warhead, and can hit the target either from the side or from the top after a terminal pop-up manoeuver.

If we look at the 19,000 ton USN Ohio-class SSGN conversion, it can carry up to 154 Tomahawk SLCM's in VLS cells. Imagine if it was used as an anti-shipping platform.

IMO the PLAN's SSBN development can be modified for SSGN variant (SSBN's are built for VLS anyway). Instead of SLBM's, they can be equipped with SLCM VLS system. Possible weapons include anti-ship SLCM, Land-attack SLCM, anti-submarine rocket/SUBROC, sub-launched UAV, attack-UAV, etc.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario (armchair general at work) with a Type 094 SSGN variant. The assumed specs of the sub is 9,000 ton displacement, 60-80 cel VLS, 6x torpedo tubes + 12-18 torpedos.

===== Simulated fictional scenario =====

An enemy submarine is detected at beyond-torpedo range. The SSGN fires a couple of SUBROC's, which flys for 60 km and drops an active (light-weight) torpedo on top of the enemy sub. Boom. (see: USN Sea Lance SUBROC)

An enemy surface ship is detected (by satellite or other means) at range of 400 km. The SSGN fires multiple anti-ship SLCM's at target, then an UAV to confirm target status (one-way mission, UAV will not be recovered).

The SSGN receives orders to attack a land-target 1,000 km away. The SSGN launches land-attack SLCM's at target, then an UAV to inspect the target.

=======================

Lighter-displacement conventional subs, such as the 039G SSK, are prolly too small for VLS system.
 
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chakos

New Member
VIP Professional
No offence to anyone here but i my personal opinion is that the Chinese submarine force is a load of garbage apart from the Kilos and Yuans it operates. Even the new type 093 is said to be based on the Russian Victor class submarine.. a submarine that to the best of my knowledge is no longer even in service with the Russian navy. If i was in charge of procurement for the Chinese navy i would avoid designing and building indegenous nuclear submarines in the first place. It is obvious that the main threat to China navally is the United States and if you realistically hope to match them then you are wasting your time producing something as complex as a nuclear submarine with little or no experience and hoping that you can compete with a Los Angeles class or a Ohio.

This is what i would to do catch up both numerically and Technologically.

*Build as many Kilos under licence and Yuans as possible in order to secure the littoral approaches to the mainland as well as to be able to blockade the Western side of Taiwan, neutralise the Japanese and Indian navies etc.

*Secure the rights to produce the Akula and the Oscar class submarines from Russia, this could probably be secured under an arrangement that will see a joint Sino/Russian production facility located in China where the submarines are built and an understanding that this facility will also provide maintenance and production of submarines for Russia at a reduced cost. (money talks bullshit walks)

*Purchase 4 - 6 New build Typhoons from Russia (They will take care of your second strike capabilities for at least the next 25 years if maintained correctly, and experience shows that one thing the Chinese are very good at is maintenance).

Once this is done China can concentrate on building more of the new classes of surface vessels it has aleady designed, in my opinion the Chinese navy needs the following to be considered a serious Blue Water Navy

4 - 8 Carriers with an ability to carry at least 36-48 A/C
30 Advanced Destroyers (Type Type 51/52 variants)
40 General Purpose Frigates (Type 53)
4-6 Typhoons
8-12 Oscars
18-24 Akulas

It sounds a lot but China is the worlds premier rising economy, it has the worlds largest population and has the ability to build lots quickly, its time to think big, think efficient and work towards a goal.

:coffee:
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Does China possess a nuclear submarine ? If not, then is it building one ?

Read the rules, one-liners aren't allowed, and questions like these should be either researched upon or asked in the FAQ, not now!
 
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Siddharth

New Member
Indianfighter said:
Does China possess a nuclear submarine ? If not, then is it building one ?

Type 091 Han class (operational),
Type 092 Xia class (operational),
Type 093 (under development),
Type 094 (under development)
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
chakos said:
No offence to anyone here but i my personal opinion is that the Chinese submarine force is a load of garbage apart from the Kilos and Yuans it operates. Even the new type 093 is said to be based on the Russian Victor class submarine.. a submarine that to the best of my knowledge is no longer even in service with the Russian navy. If i was in charge of procurement for the Chinese navy i would avoid designing and building indegenous nuclear submarines in the first place. It is obvious that the main threat to China navally is the United States and if you realistically hope to match them then you are wasting your time producing something as complex as a nuclear submarine with little or no experience and hoping that you can compete with a Los Angeles class or a Ohio.

This is what i would to do catch up both numerically and Technologically.

*Build as many Kilos under licence and Yuans as possible in order to secure the littoral approaches to the mainland as well as to be able to blockade the Western side of Taiwan, neutralise the Japanese and Indian navies etc.

*Secure the rights to produce the Akula and the Oscar class submarines from Russia, this could probably be secured under an arrangement that will see a joint Sino/Russian production facility located in China where the submarines are built and an understanding that this facility will also provide maintenance and production of submarines for Russia at a reduced cost. (money talks bullshit walks)

*Purchase 4 - 6 New build Typhoons from Russia (They will take care of your second strike capabilities for at least the next 25 years if maintained correctly, and experience shows that one thing the Chinese are very good at is maintenance).

Once this is done China can concentrate on building more of the new classes of surface vessels it has aleady designed, in my opinion the Chinese navy needs the following to be considered a serious Blue Water Navy

4 - 8 Carriers with an ability to carry at least 36-48 A/C
30 Advanced Destroyers (Type Type 51/52 variants)
40 General Purpose Frigates (Type 53)
4-6 Typhoons
8-12 Oscars
18-24 Akulas

It sounds a lot but China is the worlds premier rising economy, it has the worlds largest population and has the ability to build lots quickly, its time to think big, think efficient and work towards a goal.

:coffee:

not as bad as you think. 093 was originally compared to Victor III, which last got commissionned in 1994 in Russia. But it has been said that it's probably more advanced than that due to the usage of much newer COTS parts and Russian parts used on the latest SSN. The 094 is said to be quieter than typhoon according to certain sources.

As for Kilos, we would you want more kilos when the more advanced Yuan is available and when Lada is available for purchase. Either way, whether you get Kilos or Yuan, they are going to get detected by the Americans, so you might as well go with the indigenous design which is cheaper.

As for the SSNs and SSGNs, they are just too expensive to purchase and maintain. Even PLAN has a limit on the stuff that it purchases. And besides, the Russian nuclear subs are known for their lack of reliability.
 

swimmerXC

Unregistered
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Indianfighter said:
Does China possess a nuclear submarine ? If not, then is it building one ?

We had a SSN since the late 1970's and SSBN since early 1980's.

Siddharth said:
Type 091 Han class (operational),
Type 092 Xia class (operational),
Type 093 (under development),
Type 094 (under development)

Ummm your list is a little inaccurate, 093 and 094 are not under development, they are already launched into the PLAN
All of these are Operational:
4~5 Type 091 Han class SSN
1 Type 092 Xia class SSBN
1~3 Type 093 Shang class SSN
According to Asian sources two were launched by late 2003, with a third being built at that time.
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1 Type 094 Jin class SSBN
In June 2004, the PLA launched its first second-generation Type 094 Jin class SSBN. In contrast to the long-gestating and troubled Type 092 Xia-class, the Type 094 is expected to constitute China's first reliable nuclear second-strike force within the next year or two.
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Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
(again golly comes and minimalizes china, what does he think he's doing??:mad: )

Sorry, But once again i must hold your horses for you...

The 093 and 094 are still mysterious, there is no solid evidence that the boats are launched, only rumours..., Strategycenter is know of sometimes making overstatements.

It may be so, but again it may not be. So lets not claim something solid as there isen't nothing to rely on.

Now before you jump in and say, "hey but golly we proove you wrong at the 051C issue, so you are wrong now as we--" I must remind you that I will admitt being wrong, but only after I've been proven so, and that usually takes bit more than just hearing something said by the maintenance man who heard it from the company's horsemens...
 
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