Why don't they buy other attack sub?
- Thread starter Dragon
- Start date
considering how many Ex-USSR engineers/scientists are working in Chinese military complexes right now, you can pretty much say that every Chinese initiative have the assistance of Russians. And no, the help is not restricted to the Russians. China is buying all possible latest off-the shelf electronics products. According to Kanwa (not sure if this is correct), China is even using Japanese and German made electronics on 093.Dragon said:
As for Russian not willing to sell attack subs, what about the Kursk controversy? I'm pretty sure the Russians would be willing to make a similar deal with China as it did with the Indians. The problem is the cost of purchasing and maintaining these subs. You might even get a new carrier at that amount.
tphuang said:
Well, yes, I see Russian assistance involved in China's naval projects as well. I worded myself incorrectly. I meant to just say that they were working on a new 093 sub on their own initiative. Not necessarily by themselves.
As far as the Russians selling nuke boats. There's no evidence that they will sell or offer China options to purchase or lease them as of now. In all fairness to what you're saying though tphuang, there's no evidence that they won't offer them. Perhaps they will. I just haven't seen anything yet that leads me to that conclusion. And you're totally right about the costs. I'm not sure how much a Chinese carrier would cost, but I know they aren't cheap to build and operate. But then again, neither are nuclear subs.
Russia have only two classes of diesel subs available for sale: the Kilo and Lada/Amur.
And China now have the Kilo. It does not need the Lada, since the Yuan is probably as capable. (In my opinion, buying more Kilos would be sort of silly, since China is making the Yuan itslef, comparable to the Kilo in size and weapons, and probably noise.)
As for SSNs, I would not touch those even if they were up for sale. I simply do not trust Russian SSNs(Nuclear reactors, not sure about reliability or shielding), not with old stories, and especially with rumors I am hearing.
Plus, China has its own weapons incompatable with Russian platforms.
Chinese SSKs aren't that bad anyway.
I am still wondering, what are the differences between Sierra and Akula....
And China now have the Kilo. It does not need the Lada, since the Yuan is probably as capable. (In my opinion, buying more Kilos would be sort of silly, since China is making the Yuan itslef, comparable to the Kilo in size and weapons, and probably noise.)
As for SSNs, I would not touch those even if they were up for sale. I simply do not trust Russian SSNs(Nuclear reactors, not sure about reliability or shielding), not with old stories, and especially with rumors I am hearing.
Plus, China has its own weapons incompatable with Russian platforms.
Chinese SSKs aren't that bad anyway.
I am still wondering, what are the differences between Sierra and Akula....
Kampfwagen
Junior Member
Sumdud, this is what I was able to find.
Specifications of both Akula and Sierra Class submarines for comparison. Among items of note is that the Sierra class can dive deeper and has a larger displacement than the Akula. The Akula however is slightly longer. The rest I leave for you.
Specifications of both Akula and Sierra Class submarines for comparison. Among items of note is that the Sierra class can dive deeper and has a larger displacement than the Akula. The Akula however is slightly longer. The rest I leave for you.
darth sidious
Banned Idiot
sumdud said:
Sierra is designed in teh 70s to combat new american SSN such as the LA class is combines the sonar and titanium construction of the alfa with the weapons and quieting fetures of the victoryIII with the more relible VM-5 reactor. the design was a sucess a sierra II was quiet enough to ram the USS banton rouge( and suffer limited damage thanks to its titanium construction). however because of its titanium construction it was tooo expansive to mass produce. the akula was basicaly a serria made out of AK-29 steel( they even skiped the primilary design ) however some of its perfomance its inferior compared with the serria .
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If China did sought nuclear submarine technology from Russia, I'd rather China pursue technology associated with SSBNs than SSNs or SSGNs.
SSBNs, China has quite a lot of propulsion difficulties with Xia, and is still relatively behind in terms of missile, and launch capabilities from submarines. The Delta IV associated technology would probably be useful for the 094 class. Quietness and performance of acquiring Russian SSBNs is not the issue for Chinese SSBNs are not expected to engage any enemy ship in a war and would launch missiles from local waters anway; its the acquisition of technology from the Russians that would ensure efficiency of Chinese submarine launch capabilities and missile encapsulation.
As for SSGN, the SSGN's role can be substituted by modern fighter bombers, surface ships and sub-launched AShMs, all of which China is working on. The SSGN is an expensive option, PLAN submarines using the YJ-8X sublaunch variants should be efficient for the next few decades.
SSN wise, I think PLAN has come quite a way, and if it buys or relies too heavily on Russian SSN designs, then China might end up quite lagging and behind if it has to constantly rely on Russian technology generations behind. The 093 is a good start, and once propulsion is fixed, then what is learnt from quieting technology, torpedoes, sensors and missiles can be applied for create an indigenous high tech submarine.
SSBNs, China has quite a lot of propulsion difficulties with Xia, and is still relatively behind in terms of missile, and launch capabilities from submarines. The Delta IV associated technology would probably be useful for the 094 class. Quietness and performance of acquiring Russian SSBNs is not the issue for Chinese SSBNs are not expected to engage any enemy ship in a war and would launch missiles from local waters anway; its the acquisition of technology from the Russians that would ensure efficiency of Chinese submarine launch capabilities and missile encapsulation.
As for SSGN, the SSGN's role can be substituted by modern fighter bombers, surface ships and sub-launched AShMs, all of which China is working on. The SSGN is an expensive option, PLAN submarines using the YJ-8X sublaunch variants should be efficient for the next few decades.
SSN wise, I think PLAN has come quite a way, and if it buys or relies too heavily on Russian SSN designs, then China might end up quite lagging and behind if it has to constantly rely on Russian technology generations behind. The 093 is a good start, and once propulsion is fixed, then what is learnt from quieting technology, torpedoes, sensors and missiles can be applied for create an indigenous high tech submarine.
I'd say screw buying russian subs...
Not good for China and Russia will be mostly unwillingly to sell subs themselves. If SSN was available for sale, even SSBN, then Russia would sell other advanced things too...
I'd say China should save money, keep on track with 093/094 even if it takes time, continue to receive russian assistance, and spend more money buying more aviation and missile/torpedo products.
Heck, if Russia was willing to sell anything, i'd prefer it if PLAN bought Kutznetsov than russian subs. Kutznetsov at least could work with a repaired Varyag.
Even if we could buy nuclear submarines, the ones the Russians would offer are probably not at even 80% operational capacity, and would cost money to repair and refit them for PLAN service, especially if they are sold from being mothballed.
Not good for China and Russia will be mostly unwillingly to sell subs themselves. If SSN was available for sale, even SSBN, then Russia would sell other advanced things too...
I'd say China should save money, keep on track with 093/094 even if it takes time, continue to receive russian assistance, and spend more money buying more aviation and missile/torpedo products.
Heck, if Russia was willing to sell anything, i'd prefer it if PLAN bought Kutznetsov than russian subs. Kutznetsov at least could work with a repaired Varyag.
Even if we could buy nuclear submarines, the ones the Russians would offer are probably not at even 80% operational capacity, and would cost money to repair and refit them for PLAN service, especially if they are sold from being mothballed.
There is simply no way to purchase any SSNs from Russia. Mothballed ones are in no shape to be put back into service. New construction would take a long time as Russia no longer has the building capabilities it once had.
However, purchasing more Russian surface ships would not be a bad idea in my opinion, such as the Slava class or Udaloys. They can bridge the gap before larger numbers of 52Cs and 52Bs start arriving in service. But on the other hand, their lack of stealth features is troubling.
However, purchasing more Russian surface ships would not be a bad idea in my opinion, such as the Slava class or Udaloys. They can bridge the gap before larger numbers of 52Cs and 52Bs start arriving in service. But on the other hand, their lack of stealth features is troubling.
China needs to develop its own naval production base, and make itself capable of building nuclear subs and a large navy. Without this it cannot be a true naval power. Besides, it will garner various economic and technological benefits. Buying Russian technology has worked for a while; the main purpose was to build a force capable of detering America, Japan and Taiwan just enough with the threat of the loss of a carrier or large number of ships, etc very quickly. China has done that, and now it needs to "fill in the gaps" by producing its own ships and and ship-building infrastructure and bringing its Navy up to a higher level with larger numbers of quality ships that reflect a more well-rounded navy, capable of dealing with all manner of threats from regional low-intensity conflicts to air/subsurface/surface conventional warfare on a fleet level to full blown nuclear war. Carriers, DDGs and subs are all all part of this equation, as are more mundane things like minesweepers and logistic ships. The PLAN is advancing towards being a well-rounded and universally capable Navy at a fairly quick and even pace.