What the Heck?! Thread (Closed)

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solarz

Brigadier
I am just talking about incentive for people who are capable of work to want to look for work, in which case it is guaranteed to be more effective than giving them money.

Blaming labor costs, especially minimum wage, regardless of the relative size of its influence on business versus other factors is the very definition of "trickle down" economics.

Everything you mentioned are employer excuses to keep labor costs down for their lowest tier workers and neglect more demand being generated when more people can afford more.

How about cutting pay to highly paid employees like CEOs or management? Why must regulations allow for outsourcing of production or import of labor or foreign goods/services? So what if the cost gets passed on to consumers, as if the cost doesn't get passed on to consumers if other factors increase costs. What is an acceptable profit margin for a business, defined by whom?

Assuming what you are saying is implementable, raising the minimum wage seems like a backwards way of doing it.

Why not just pass a law dictating corporations how much profit they can make, and how much money they can pay their CEO or management?

I think you know why. Such laws would be unenforceable at best, with the potential to be disastrous for a country's economy.

So if we can't control those factors, why would we want to raise the minimum wage? If the objective was to raise people's living standards, doing this would be ineffective at best, and counter-productive at worst.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I am just talking about incentive for people who are capable of work to want to look for work, in which case it is guaranteed to be more effective than giving them money.

Blaming labor costs, especially minimum wage, regardless of the relative size of its influence on business versus other factors is the very definition of "trickle down" economics.

Umm, no. Letting supply and demand determine price points for goods and services is at the heart of economics theory, and its one of the few economic theories that actually works reasonably well in practice. It has nothing to do with trickle down economics theory.

Those low paying jobs are not going unfilled, which means there are people prepared to take those wages and terms.

That is the key issue, you want to create more jobs, not get more people to fight for the same number, or more likely, fewer jobs that pay a little bit more money.

Everything you mentioned are employer excuses to keep labor costs down for their lowest tier workers and neglect more demand being generated when more people can afford more.

Not really, you only need to look at places like France to see what too much state largess in terms of minimum wages and working hours does to a country's productivity and competitiveness.

The key with economics is balance, not to always side with bosses or workers.

Sometimes the bosses overstep, but other times workers demand too much.

But it has been proven from past actual experience that if you jack up prices artificially, all that will happen is either companies outsource the work to another region/country with lower wages and regulations; and/or the higher costs gets passed into the consumer (easy to do when the price hike affects everyone, much like a VAT increase), fuelling inflation (which eats away any nominal wage growth the increased minimal wage brought); and/or cut job creation.

How about cutting pay to highly paid employees like CEOs or management?

Why must it be a choice, why could you not do this AND give poor people money?

Why must regulations allow for outsourcing of production or import of labor or foreign goods/services?

Umm, not much regulators can do about outsourcing unless you want out of free trade bodies like the EU and WTO etc.

If someone wants to close down their factory, the government cannot make him keep it open. If that same someone then opens up a factory making the same things in China, how are you going to stop him exporting that to your country? Start a trade war with China?

So what if the cost gets passed on to consumers, as if the cost doesn't get passed on to consumers if other factors increase costs. What is an acceptable profit margin for a business, defined by whom?

Well, if the increased costs gets passed onto the consumers, those consumers will have less money to spend on other things if they buy this now more expensive good/service.

Given the nature of economics, the kind of goods and services provided by people earning minimum wage also tend to be the kind of things few of us can get away with not paying for. So think basic food production/preparation staff; sales staff at supermarkets; waiting staff; cleaning staff etc. Their costs are not usually associated with anything in particular (except food, but no one can go without that), so it's very hard to opt out of paying extra, which equals or higher inflation, which means everyone's money looses purchasing power (while only a small fraction of the workforce will actually get any benefit from a minimum wage hike).

Normally, profit margins are determined by elasticity of demand, but if you introduce a systemic price increase, like with an increase in VAT or minimum wage, it's incredibly easy for business to pass that directly onto the consumer, because a) everyone will be hit with the same increase, so there isn't any incentive for anyone to take the hit themselves; and b) the general public expect it, so businesses can expect to face zero blowback from increased prices, as they can easily point the finger at the government instead.

The whole point with new gen smart policies is to not try to argue with how unfair things are, but to try and overcome those injustices with novel new policy ideas.

Sure, a lot of the points you brought up are seriously screwed up and should be reformed, but such reforms needs global co-operation.

Without every major country signing on, no single country could possibly hope to introduce policies that can effectively counter things like outsourcing, executive compensation and business profit margins.

All the major economics all have WTO, and/or bilateral and/or regional trade treaties commitments which massively limit what they can do to stop things like outsourcing, and executive pay is hard to tackle because the talent pool is small, and highly geographically mobile. If you cap executive pay at $100,000 and US firms are offering $1,000,000 for the same job, all the best people will go work for US firms while you are left picking from the rejects pile.
 
Assuming what you are saying is implementable, raising the minimum wage seems like a backwards way of doing it.

Why not just pass a law dictating corporations how much profit they can make, and how much money they can pay their CEO or management?

I think you know why. Such laws would be unenforceable at best, with the potential to be disastrous for a country's economy.

So if we can't control those factors, why would we want to raise the minimum wage? If the objective was to raise people's living standards, doing this would be ineffective at best, and counter-productive at worst.

Umm, no. Letting supply and demand determine price points for goods and services is at the heart of economics theory, and its one of the few economic theories that actually works reasonably well in practice. It has nothing to do with trickle down economics theory.

Those low paying jobs are not going unfilled, which means there are people prepared to take those wages and terms.

That is the key issue, you want to create more jobs, not get more people to fight for the same number, or more likely, fewer jobs that pay a little bit more money.



Not really, you only need to look at places like France to see what too much state largess in terms of minimum wages and working hours does to a country's productivity and competitiveness.

The key with economics is balance, not to always side with bosses or workers.

Sometimes the bosses overstep, but other times workers demand too much.

But it has been proven from past actual experience that if you jack up prices artificially, all that will happen is either companies outsource the work to another region/country with lower wages and regulations; and/or the higher costs gets passed into the consumer (easy to do when the price hike affects everyone, much like a VAT increase), fuelling inflation (which eats away any nominal wage growth the increased minimal wage brought); and/or cut job creation.



Why must it be a choice, why could you not do this AND give poor people money?



Umm, not much regulators can do about outsourcing unless you want out of free trade bodies like the EU and WTO etc.

If someone wants to close down their factory, the government cannot make him keep it open. If that same someone then opens up a factory making the same things in China, how are you going to stop him exporting that to your country? Start a trade war with China?



Well, if the increased costs gets passed onto the consumers, those consumers will have less money to spend on other things if they buy this now more expensive good/service.

Given the nature of economics, the kind of goods and services provided by people earning minimum wage also tend to be the kind of things few of us can get away with not paying for. So think basic food production/preparation staff; sales staff at supermarkets; waiting staff; cleaning staff etc. Their costs are not usually associated with anything in particular (except food, but no one can go without that), so it's very hard to opt out of paying extra, which equals or higher inflation, which means everyone's money looses purchasing power (while only a small fraction of the workforce will actually get any benefit from a minimum wage hike).

Normally, profit margins are determined by elasticity of demand, but if you introduce a systemic price increase, like with an increase in VAT or minimum wage, it's incredibly easy for business to pass that directly onto the consumer, because a) everyone will be hit with the same increase, so there isn't any incentive for anyone to take the hit themselves; and b) the general public expect it, so businesses can expect to face zero blowback from increased prices, as they can easily point the finger at the government instead.

The whole point with new gen smart policies is to not try to argue with how unfair things are, but to try and overcome those injustices with novel new policy ideas.

Sure, a lot of the points you brought up are seriously screwed up and should be reformed, but such reforms needs global co-operation.

Without every major country signing on, no single country could possibly hope to introduce policies that can effectively counter things like outsourcing, executive compensation and business profit margins.

All the major economics all have WTO, and/or bilateral and/or regional trade treaties commitments which massively limit what they can do to stop things like outsourcing, and executive pay is hard to tackle because the talent pool is small, and highly geographically mobile. If you cap executive pay at $100,000 and US firms are offering $1,000,000 for the same job, all the best people will go work for US firms while you are left picking from the rejects pile.

Obviously it's a complicated issue and the minimum wage is just one option among many which requires co-ordination of multiple policies just like all the other options that have been mentioned whether they are new or not.

The minimum wage has been disproportionately blamed for issues that are due to a lot of other factors, some of which may be minimally affected by it, singled out as if it exists in a vacuum or as if it should work when mixed with other policies that contradict it, and most definitely politically demonized, if that same kind of evaluation is put upon any other policy they would appear ineffective as well.

"Trickle down" economics is based on the premise of beggars and lack of freedom at the bottom thereby they must bear with the trickle, lack of a minimum wage facilitates such a setup.

Simply if the goal is to get people to look for work then the work has to pay enough.
 

solarz

Brigadier
"Trickle down" economics is based on the premise of beggars and lack of freedom at the bottom thereby they must bear with the trickle, lack of a minimum wage facilitates such a setup.

Simply if the goal is to get people to look for work then the work has to pay enough.

In China, there are people who come to your house to buy your old electronics and other useless items. They make a brisk business selling those off to recycling plants.

In Canada, recycling plants won't even touch certain recyclable materials because they can't make a profit off them. This is what minimum wage does: it leaves a gaping hole in the economic ecosystem because nobody is willing to do certain things.

Society owes people the opportunity to work for a living, it does not owe them a living. If the goal was to get people to look for work, then we should not be paying them for not working.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Obviously it's a complicated issue and the minimum wage is just one option among many which requires co-ordination of multiple policies just like all the other options that have been mentioned whether they are new or not.

The minimum wage has been disproportionately blamed for issues that are due to a lot of other factors, some of which may be minimally affected by it, singled out as if it exists in a vacuum or as if it should work when mixed with other policies that contradict it, and most definitely politically demonized, if that same kind of evaluation is put upon any other policy they would appear ineffective as well.

"Trickle down" economics is based on the premise of beggars and lack of freedom at the bottom thereby they must bear with the trickle, lack of a minimum wage facilitates such a setup.

Simply if the goal is to get people to look for work then the work has to pay enough.

Again, your suggested remedy (high minimum wage) doesn't really address any of the ills you stressed as need fixing.

Minimum wage doesn't deter work, entitlement does. There is no minimum wage in China or most (any?) developing economies, yet you don't see millions of Chinese people kicking back saying it's not worth working do you?

Minimum wage is really only a thing because the western welfare state made it so. That if the basic state wealthfare one gets for doing nothing is equal or higher to the wage one earns working, that creates a perverse disincentive to go out and work, so a minimum wage is needed to ensure even the lowliest work pays more than state wealthfare.

The problem with that is that it's a vicious circle.

You increase the minimum wage, which fuels inflation, which means you (as the government) are under pressure to increase wealthfare payments as the purchasing power of existing welfare allowances are eroded by said rising inflation. Raising welfare payments again creates a disincentive to work, forcing another minimum wage increase. So on and so forth.

I do agree with you that there are a lot of prejudice and bad policies that unfairly disadvantage poorer people, who often get dealt such a poor hand by simply being born poor that no amount of hard work could get them out of that poverty trap.

In my view, a key component of the disincentive to work is also a realisation and sense of resignation on the part of the poor that 'this is my lot in life'. That the 'game' is so rigged against them that no matter how hard they work, they will never break out of the poverty they were born into, so why bother at all? Better to just enjoy life as much as possible.

That is the area where the government should be focusing its resources and energies - in eradicating barriers to social mobility and giving all citizens a fair opportunity to make something of themselves through hard work and dedication.

If you contrast the poor in places like the UK and China, the most striking difference, other than differences in state social welfare, is the general sense of oppitism (or lack of it).

In China, there is the real belief and expectation that one could improve one's station through hard work. If not for oneself, then at least for the next generation.

It is that promise that made migrant workers leave their homes in the tens or even hundreds of million to work in the cities, where there is no magical minimum wage to motivate them.

Again, in the China example, western pundits and analysists love to stress China's 'poor' workers' rights situation, and yes, there are indeed too many cases of exploitation and poor treatment. But those are still the tiny minority that gets disproportionate western media attention.

The unreported fact is that for the overwhelming majority, even with minimal government regulations, both working conditions and wages rose significantly over the years, so much so that China is now fast loosing its once indomitable labour cost advantage compared to western developed economies.

That wasn't achieved through minimum wage, but good old supply and demand market forces.

As I said, price setting is one of the things free market does reasonably well.

The core problem with trickle down was that it was based on loony toon wishful thinking (at best, more like lies bought and paid for by the rich in reality) economic theory that bares little to no connection with real world events.

The true effect (arguably aim and goal to start with) is to rob the poor to feed the rich and to protect the position and status of the rich against encroachment by the upstart peasants.

The condescending hostile attitude the proponents of trickle down towards the poor for having the gull to be born poor and not know their place is a core reason for the disenfranchisement and lack of motivation on the part of the poor.

However, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because trickle downers advocate it, does not make the argument against a high minimum wage automatically defunct.

One needs to carefully examine each policy by its own merits and disintengle it from all the other political ideological nonsense the press usually packages it with.

As such, my conclusion is that a high minimum wage is a highly ineffective, and ultimately self defeating way to address the core fundamental wrong we both agree on - lack of social mobility and inequality in societies.

My argument is base purely on the practicality of the policy, not the loaded ideology opponents of minimum wage often air in the western press (owned by the rich I might add).

Simply put, there are far better ways to go about boosting social mobility and reducing inequality. And as a demonstration of just how crap minimum wages are, literally handing out free money would be a better policy in my view (not the best by a long shot mind you).
 

solarz

Brigadier
I do agree with you that there are a lot of prejudice and bad policies that unfairly disadvantage poorer people, who often get dealt such a poor hand by simply being born poor that no amount of hard work could get them out of that poverty trap.

In my view, a key component of the disincentive to work is also a realisation and sense of resignation on the part of the poor that 'this is my lot in life'. That the 'game' is so rigged against them that no matter how hard they work, they will never break out of the poverty they were born into, so why bother at all? Better to just enjoy life as much as possible.

That is the area where the government should be focusing its resources and energies - in eradicating barriers to social mobility and giving all citizens a fair opportunity to make something of themselves through hard work and dedication.

If you contrast the poor in places like the UK and China, the most striking difference, other than differences in state social welfare, is the general sense of oppitism (or lack of it).

In China, there is the real belief and expectation that one could improve one's station through hard work. If not for oneself, then at least for the next generation.

It is that promise that made migrant workers leave their homes in the tens or even hundreds of million to work in the cities, where there is no magical minimum wage to motivate them.

What strikes me the most is the difference in attitude between the poor in China, and the poor in developed nations like Canada.

In China, it is almost a cliche that poor parents will do everything in their power, sacrifice everything, so that their children can get a good education.

On the other hand, in Canada, poor families place little value on education. The cliche of dead-beat dads sitting on the couch drinking beer and watching TV comes to mind.

Yes, these are stereotypes. I'm sure there are plenty of dead-beat dads in China, and plenty of hard working parents who value education highly in Canada. However, why do we have such stereotypes, if not for the fact that that's how people in their respective countries view poverty?
 
In China, there are people who come to your house to buy your old electronics and other useless items. They make a brisk business selling those off to recycling plants.

In Canada, recycling plants won't even touch certain recyclable materials because they can't make a profit off them. This is what minimum wage does: it leaves a gaping hole in the economic ecosystem because nobody is willing to do certain things.

Society owes people the opportunity to work for a living, it does not owe them a living. If the goal was to get people to look for work, then we should not be paying them for not working.

There is no proof in your post at all whether minimum wage is the primary cause of the different situations, you merely jumped to conclusions.

In your example, what about transportation costs? Real estate costs? Actual recycling costs? Whether anything is actually recycled? In a safe and non-polluting manner?

The last line in your post actually supports my point that a minimum wage is better than handouts to get people to look for work.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
There is no proof in your post at all whether minimum wage is the primary cause of the different situations, you merely jumped to conclusions.

In your example, what about transportation costs? Real estate costs? Actual recycling costs? Whether anything is actually recycled? In a safe and non-polluting manner?

The last line in your post actually supports my point that a minimum wage is better than handouts to get people to look for work.

I think what Solarz were trying to convey is that society doesn't owe anybody ANYTHING. One still has the right to work for a living without any or little impediments to meet the basic needs. Other than that, as far as handouts that all depends on how much that nation's tax payers could afford.
 
I think what Solarz were trying to convey is that society doesn't owe anybody ANYTHING. One still has the right to work for a living without any or little impediments to meet the basic needs. Other than that, as far as handouts that all depends on how much that nation's tax payers could afford.

Actually society owes everybody what enough people feel is a good enough deal. From politics as usual to armed revolution are all methods to renegotiate the social contract when not enough people feel it is a good enough deal.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Actually society owes everybody what enough people feel is a good enough deal. From politics as usual to armed revolution are all methods to renegotiate the social contract when not enough people feel it is a good enough deal.

Yeah but where do one draws the line before it became an issue that can become violence.
 
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