V-22 Osprey Thread - News, Pics, Videos

Air Force Brat

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That both @Jeff Head and myself agree with.

Absolutely. Agreed. Small batch orders of such with the level of modifications needed are cost prohibitive.
Absolutely agreed there is a need for a Next generation naval AEW aircraft that can operate off short deck no cat carrier types.
We meaning @Jeff Head and myself both also seem to be agreed that a Tiltrotor seems the superior to a helicopter platform.

Again we are of one mind on the stated needs. However it is how we decide to reach a solution that we differ.

Based on this statement I believe then that you would argue for the full on conversions EV22 as opposed to the roll on kit option derived from the set up Mentioned

This requires not just Intigration of the "Top hat" array but also extensive modifications to the fuselage to allow for a HVAC pressurisation. V22 was original designed to replace the CH46 "Frog" Seaknight helicopter of the USMC and expanded since then as a result the Marines Boeing and Textron (Bell) left two issues that have never been solved with the V22. The first is it's small cargo hold designed based off the CH46 for the short lived M151 MUTT with it's narrow width. The second is that it was left unpressurized like most helicopters. To date the only pressurised tiltrotor has been the AW609 which was developed for VIP use as an alternative to a biz Jet/Helicopters.
Lacking of such demands that the crew of a EV22 would have to operate with oxygen masks and a lower altitude than that of the E2 series. This is a hinderence to getting the most out of the radar set as the Crew would be limited to the time on Oxygen and effects of cold weather.
The alternative would demand a redesigned fuselage to accommodate the crew for a higher operating ceiling. This would increase weight and price and basically result in a new aircraft with a Run of maybe 150. Although if you have taken that much work for the program it could be that at that point offered as a replacement of E2 as well which would farther increase a potential run.
By contrast the MUX wouldn't be just for the carrier wing. It has potential for across the fleet as an ASW and as a ISR drone. The Marines want it for there operations to. It has potential for the Army as well.

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By the estimates of your own web site a Izumo class could hold 12 F35B, 8 V22 and 8 H60J ASW/SAR birds at max more likely less in operations.
MV22B can suport a number of roles potential tanker, Assault, COD but EV22 is a dedicated AEW to intigrate them into the Izumo you would need to trade off MV22B. At a minimum 2. Leaving 6 MV22.
Now a EV247 could take the place of 2 SH60J allowing the full MV22 load. Yes some reduced capacity from a smaller radar, and depending upon implementation it might still be a usable ASW platform.

For Dokdo the first ship of the class can only carry 1 V22. The second 2.
Because of the smaller size of V247 it would be a far easier Intigration replacing UH1 or UH60 helicopters.

This also applies to the America and Wasp even the QE class. America class in light carrier configuration is supposed to be about 20 F35B and 2 MH60. It would be far easier to support that load out with V247 carried by Escourt than EV22. In I'm more normal loads 12 MV22, 6 F35B, 4 CH53K, a mix of 7 Vipers or Venoms and 2 MH60. By using the V22 as the base one of the largest aircraft in the air wing gets traded off. For the America or wasp class those V22 are for the Marines. They have to question just what they need to transport. That makes things harder. By contrast V247 could go for a smaller spot making deck operations far easier.

V22 C2 and E2 all take over the decks of CVN when being moved, landed or taken off. They also dominate hanger spaces. V247 is sized as small as a UH1. It easily would fit in smaller hanger spaces like those of LHA and DDH.

On range of operations the designation Bell used for there V247 is as in theory 2 V247 could supply round the clock coverage 24-7. .
We are already seeing radars of far more power being shifted to drone platforms Multi-Platform Radar Technology Insertion Program and Sigint on Global hawk for example.
Although there would be trade offs it's just more practical I think.
1) The AEW kits could be built off existing SearchWater/Cerberus kits at least for export.
2) less impact on deck operations allowing those already using V22 The USMC and Japan to not have to trade off troop operations for AEW needs. And even be based off Escourt.
Those with more worried about onboard space would have less issues the platform being when stowed the size of a common medium/light helicopter type.
3) Multirole. ASW, ISR, Sigint are all already in the MUX plan. Meaning that adoption by allies as well as the U.S. doesn't limit it to just the carrier deck The same aircraft with a different kit could support DDG, FFG, LPD assets even expeditionary and ground forces. That would be a major selling point to Japan, Korea and the UK.
4) Being unmanned means the issues of oxygen Being refuelable means that it could just keep flying and tanking this means that the aircraft is not limited by human factors like fatigue or hypoxia.
5)in the works. V247 is being offered as part of the MAGTF Unmanned Aircraft System Expeditionary (MUX) via the Marines and NAVAir

All great ideas gentlemen, the important thing is we all agree there is a NEED, not a want for ASW aircraft... how we get there is up to the "experts", LOL..
 
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By contrast the MUX wouldn't be just for the carrier wing. It has potential for across the fleet as an ASW and as a ISR drone. The Marines want it for there operations to. It has potential for the Army as well.

...
while inside
Marine Corps Wants MUX to Fly in 2026
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:

“The one thing about MUX is there’s not a MUX out there right now,” Rudder said.
 
V-22 Fleet Wide Readiness Rate Hovers At 52%
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things could be worse
The readiness rate for the Bell
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Osprey is at a dismal 52% and will not hit the target of 80% set by former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis “soon enough,” according to the tiltrotor aircraft’s program manager.

Deployed Ospreys have a mission-capable rate of 75%, while V-22s in the U.S. have stagnated at 50% mission capable. “In order to maintain overall fleet readiness at acceptable levels, we need to achieve a minimum of 65 percent mission capable rates across the fleet,” Lt. Gen. David Berger, who is nominated to become Marine commandant, wrote in response to advance policy questions from the Senate Armed Services Committee.

“He wasn’t lying—the readiness rates are not what we want,” Col. Matthew Kelly, V-22 program manager, said at the Navy League’s SeaAirSpace symposium here May 6. “What I will tell you is that they are improving and things like the V-22 readiness program are going to be a key piece of that.”

The
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anticipates first delivery of a V-22 from its common configuration reliability and maintainability program this summer. The service has over 70 different configurations of the V-22 and this readiness program should lift the burden on maintainers so there are only a handful of configurations.

Another improvement the Marines would like to make is better degraded visual environment performance. Along those lines, Kelly said there was a long-wave infrared camera demonstration at Yuma, Arizona, last week.

In January, the government signed a performance-based logistics and engineering deal with Bell Boeing to align incentives with industry and the fleet, Kelly said.

“We’ve seen about a 40% reduction in long-term down aircraft since the start of this year,” Kelly said.

Over fiscal 2017-18 there was an increase of 7% and in fiscal 2018-19 the government saw another increase of 5% in the V-22’s readiness rate, he said.

“We’ve seen some good things,” Kelly said. “We’re not where we want to be, but we think we’ve got the right incentives, contracts and tools in place to get those numbers up where they need to be.”

Separately, Kelly said December 2020 is the last call for services and partner nations to submit orders for the third multiyear procurement deal for the aircraft. Other program highlights include the first CMV-22 for the Navy entering final assembly at a facility in Amarillo, Texas. The government anticipates first delivery in late 2019.
 
@TerraN_EmpirE @bd popeye @Air Force Brat @Equation @siegecrossbow

The main reason it ha been cost prohibitive is because with the Royal Navy you were looking at three squadrons, one for each carrier and a test/ and a raining squadron...maybe 16 aircraft.

Now however, with the Japanese and the Koreans definitely being in the game, with Australia potentially being in the game, and India definitely needing something, and each of them wanting a squadron per carrier and one test and one training squadron...and then especially when you add the ten vessel the US has, the total number rises rapidly.

So, by squadrons for each nation, including test/training, and each squadron numbering four aircraft you end up with:

US 12 squadrons
India 5 squadrons
UK 4 squadrons
Japan 4 squadrons
Korea 4 squadrons
Australia 4 squadrons

That''s now a total of 33 squadrons time four aircraft, or a minimum of 132 aircraft. This will drive the overall costs down significantly in order to obtain the same type of profit margin that would have been looked at for 16 aircraft for the UK.

With perhaps a total build numbering 150 aircraft, you end up with a much more affordable redesign in order to go the full out AEW path...which when you consider the cost of the F-35Bs you will be putting on these vessels, should drive it down to certainly afford it. You definitely DO NOT want to short change yourself when you are spending as much as you are going to spend on an airwing of 20-24 F-35Bs for each vessel. Rather, you would want to maximize your ability to defend those aircraft from ASMs to the absolute best capability that would be available.

That, for a VSTOL carrier like the Izumo, Dokdo, Canberra, America, Wasp, QE or other such almost demands any sensible nation to get as close to an E-2D Hawkeye as possible on the STOL or VTOL capability required...and the full up EV-22 gives you that capability in spades IMHO when it comes to the full package of strongest comms, strongest SIGINT, strongest apeture radars and length of site as well as lowest level du=discrimination of any other package either currently on the market, or that has been proposed by anyone for the near to mid term future.

I really believe that for these aircraft carriers, which will be carrying about as expensive, as well as as capable an air wing as can be had for them that it almost demands the EV-22 be made available for these carriers.

...and that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Design an EV-22 with a very strong apeture, all aspect radar and all the strongets comms, SIGINT, lowest discrimination possible and have it capable of hanging 35,0000 feet above those carriers, or on any threat axis out 150 miles from them (or mor), and protet those assets like they mean the world to you...because they will.
and in the meantime
Get Your V-22 Orders In Now, Boeing Says, Or Risk Missing Out
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The armed services should hurry up and order more V-22 tiltrotors if they want them, because the program of record is rapidly being built out and there’s a risk of a break in the production line, potentially higher costs, or closing of the line, Boeing has advised.

“If you want more V-22s, you need to start planning for that acquisition now, ” Rick Lemaster, Boeing director of Global Sales and Marketing, said at a press tour of the company’s Philadelphia plant, where CH-47 Chinook helicopters and V-22 fuselages are built.

The company is in the middle of fulfilling a five-year multiyear procurement, Lemaster said, and “we’re pretty close to wrapping up our programs of record” for US domestic customers.

If the services want more airplanes, “we need your order by the third quarter of 2020,” he advised. But for international customers, they should make their intentions known this summer, because the Foreign Military Sales process needs time to play out.

Any FMS customers would need to have their letter of offer and acceptance in hand by September of 2020, he said. The production line will continue putting out V-22ss until about 2023, but long-lead items need to be ordered well before that.

Lemaster noted that the Air Force’s early plans called for 75 CV-22 tiltrotors used for special operations work, but the service “settled for 50” in the budget deliberations that followed. Boeing and the Air Force have both said a fleet of at least 60 would best serve the service, allowing sufficient airplanes for operations, modification, test, and spares. The Air Force has a requirement for 50 primary aircraft available, plus four attrition reserve airframes, but the service’s CV-22 orders were set before the new National Defense Strategy, which requires the armed forces to posture for higher-level, higher-tempo operations.

The V-22 celebrated the 30th anniversary of its first flight in March, and some 360 aircraft are operating worldwide. The Navy has ordered 48 new aircraft to do the logistics/resupply mission previously performed by the C-2 Greyhound; Japan has a requirement for 17 aircraft, and production of those has begun.

“We’re hopeful there will be enough follow-on demand to drive more procurement,” Lemaster said.

Besides Japan, Lemaster said Israel has a potential order dating back four years, for six aircraft, and there are “about a dozen” countries that have expressed interest. He sees a potential market for at least 50 more airframes.

The Navy may want more airplanes to fit out a squadron of carrier onboard delivery aircraft for both the East and West Coast of the US, he said, and that would mean 20 more airframes.

Lemaster said the unique capabilities of the V-22 may also drive requirements for the airplane in anti-submarine warfare, electronic warfare, aerial tanker for special operations aircraft, or as a gunship, among other applications.

Customers still have time to get in on the third multiyear program, he noted. All the services have options for more aircraft.

Lemaster said Boeing likely would not take the approach of having “white tail” V-22s; airplanes built without a specific customer having ordered them. Boeing built some “white tail” C-17s, and managed to sell them to countries who came late to ordering their strategic airlifters.

Still V-22 work at Philadelphia will likely continue for decades, Boeing officials said, noting the fleet will undergo modifications to bring them up to common configuration, and there will probably be a service life extension program. The Navy plans to operate its tiltrotors well into the 2040s, he said.

Among foreign customers, “there’s a lot of interest, a lot of shoppers; not sure about buyers,” Lemaster said, but “we really are to the point where this window will start to close.”

Boeing provided travel and accommodations for reporters participating in the event.
 
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