V-22 Osprey Thread - News, Pics, Videos

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by TerraN_EmpirE, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Jura
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    and now "... $240 million for three new V-22 Osprey aircraft."
    Senate passes $675 billion defense budget bill, with hopes of avoiding funding lapse next month https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...h-hopes-of-avoiding-funding-lapse-next-month/
     
  2. Jura
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    Jura General

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    while now
    367/5 = 73 point 4
    :
    Navy Orders Five Ospreys from Bell-Boeing http://seapowermagazine.org/stories/20190102-V22.html
     
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  3. Jura
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  4. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...ds-it-may-have-misplaced-blame-in-2015-crash/
     
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  5. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    I am moving here as it's less on topic for the UK thread.
    First is the obvious cost of the airframe which as @Jura points out is very pricy especially if you are only buying a handful.
    Next comes the modifications kits and Intigration.
    That could take two forms. Form one is the crows nest system currently used for the U.K. Queen Elizabeth class. The USMC and NAVAir studied the possibility. You can see what that might look like here on the lower right. Screen-Shot-2015-05-29-at-10.53.14-AM-300x232.png that would be a bolt in Crow's nest radar.
    V22crowsnest.jpeg
    Advantage of the Crow's nest is its theoretically easy to install. It was designed to install in helicopters. Disadvantage is its low performance. It's a low altitude system with shorter radar range than a Naval E2. This is less an issue for LHA types or was as the only fighters it really had to deal with were Harriers which had short range and subsonic speed.
    The other concept is the full on Naval EV22. V22AEW.jpeg
    This demands a far more extensive (read Expensive) set of modifications. The Idea is to get the most from the V22 And have inessence a replacement for the E2D. The problems though start off.
    First E2 is pressurized V22 is not. That becomes a factor here as an unpressurized crew is restricted in flight to set altitudes. The altitude issue comes from lack of oxygen and if you have an Aircraft not just being flown but being flown and critically being used to control the flights of other aircraft with personal onboard running critical operations you want them to be alert. To date the only pressurised tiltrotor is the Westland Agusta AW609 but that is basically meant to be a business jet/Helicopter replacement. Pressurizing the Osprey would basically result in a heavier aircraft and cause issues all around. so you would need to sort some kind of compromise for the crew.
    Next V22 is a bit of a compromise. It has a reduced wing and rotor diameter than optimum for a Tiltrotor of its size this is a concession made for storage aboard LHA. It results in the Osprey being less efficient in its flight regimes. So it works harder to hover and take off than it needs to now into this you wish to add a Radar array dish. That adds both weight and would farther add aerodynamic issues for hover and folding.
    Plus you have issues of the dish it's self. It needs to be large enough to give the scan range and resolution yet small enough to fit in the LHA and not interfere with storage or maintenance. As well as be shaped to prevent potential interference from the rotors. All are tall orders.
    The British did look at Osprey for the potential and decided against it.
    Even the Marines looked at the potential as can be seen in the screen shot above. At least two of the other forms have been tested Air to air refuelling and Carrier onboard delivery. That graphic is dated to 2015.
    With F35B the Marines have a fighter for the first time that can turn an LHA into a Escourt carrier.
    But V22 was designed as a cargo helicopter replacement not a AEW. This is why it becomes cost prohibitive. You either gain a so so ability by bolt on kit or need a huge investment to redesign it for the job.

    This leads us to MUX. V247.jpeg The MUX program targets a number of roles not limited to the Marines alone including AEW and ASW both missions of the Navy less the Marines. In particular the Bell V247 concept.
    First advantage it's the size of a Lynx helicopter when folded. That leans more of them potentially carried than the large V22. V22 Or E2 dominate deck space /Hanger space when on deck or in storage. The less space taken the better. For a larger ship you could have more Vigilant aboard.
    Second although no operators aboard the ships That would likely to be host to such already have air controller space. If you think about it an AEW is basically a flying air traffic control center, E3 does this with a mission staff of 13-19 controllers E2 operates with 2, but your average destroyer or cruiser has dozens already. So using modern data links they would offload the radar data to naval ships that have the resources to sort it. Infact the USAF was already looking at offloading the crew of operators from the E3 Sentry and using automation and data links do the job from home via telepresence.
    Third because there is no crew no worries about pressure. The aircraft's only altitude restrictions are those imposed by the machine same for length of operations. Keep it fueled and it can stay up for virtually unlimited time.
    Of course there is a trade off or two. First it is smaller meaning a crowsnest style radar with reduced range. But then again in the naval fleets most destroyers already have monster radars, and F35 is designed not just with a damn good radar but the ability to use that with its wingmen to form a semi ARE on there own.
     
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  6. Brumby
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    Thanks TE. That is a good write up and very informative.

    I agree with you that longer term the trend is towards a distributed sensor web in line with the USN concept of distributed lethality. I thought the EV22 might offer a reasonable interim proposition but based on what you have described I understand why it has not gained traction. The F-35B's sensor capabilities could effectively operate as a surrogate mini AWAC especially in a dual CAP/AWAC role.
     
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  7. Jeff Head
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    @TerraN_EmpirE @bd popeye @Air Force Brat @Equation @siegecrossbow

    The main reason it ha been cost prohibitive is because with the Royal Navy you were looking at three squadrons, one for each carrier and a test/ and a raining squadron...maybe 16 aircraft.

    Now however, with the Japanese and the Koreans definitely being in the game, with Australia potentially being in the game, and India definitely needing something, and each of them wanting a squadron per carrier and one test and one training squadron...and then especially when you add the ten vessel the US has, the total number rises rapidly.

    So, by squadrons for each nation, including test/training, and each squadron numbering four aircraft you end up with:

    US 12 squadrons
    India 5 squadrons
    UK 4 squadrons
    Japan 4 squadrons
    Korea 4 squadrons
    Australia 4 squadrons

    That''s now a total of 33 squadrons time four aircraft, or a minimum of 132 aircraft. This will drive the overall costs down significantly in order to obtain the same type of profit margin that would have been looked at for 16 aircraft for the UK.

    With perhaps a total build numbering 150 aircraft, you end up with a much more affordable redesign in order to go the full out AEW path...which when you consider the cost of the F-35Bs you will be putting on these vessels, should drive it down to certainly afford it. You definitely DO NOT want to short change yourself when you are spending as much as you are going to spend on an airwing of 20-24 F-35Bs for each vessel. Rather, you would want to maximize your ability to defend those aircraft from ASMs to the absolute best capability that would be available.

    That, for a VSTOL carrier like the Izumo, Dokdo, Canberra, America, Wasp, QE or other such almost demands any sensible nation to get as close to an E-2D Hawkeye as possible on the STOL or VTOL capability required...and the full up EV-22 gives you that capability in spades IMHO when it comes to the full package of strongest comms, strongest SIGINT, strongest apeture radars and length of site as well as lowest level du=discrimination of any other package either currently on the market, or that has been proposed by anyone for the near to mid term future.

    I really believe that for these aircraft carriers, which will be carrying about as expensive, as well as as capable an air wing as can be had for them that it almost demands the EV-22 be made available for these carriers.

    ...and that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

    Design an EV-22 with a very strong apeture, all aspect radar and all the strongets comms, SIGINT, lowest discrimination possible and have it capable of hanging 35,0000 feet above those carriers, or on any threat axis out 150 miles from them (or mor), and protet those assets like they mean the world to you...because they will.
     
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  8. Jura
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    as of now, Ospreys got exported only to Japan:
    Aug 26, 2017
    for an exorbitant price by the way

    but yeah Aug 16, 2018
     
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  9. Air Force Brat
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    absolutely necessary to protect those carrier with their birds, otherwise you won't be able to "drive the ship" to your optimum launch or recovery site, those carriers will open up a world of capability, but you have to defend that territory and make it costly for someone to enter your zone....
     
  10. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    That both @Jeff Head and myself agree with.

    Absolutely. Agreed. Small batch orders of such with the level of modifications needed are cost prohibitive.
    Absolutely agreed there is a need for a Next generation naval AEW aircraft that can operate off short deck no cat carrier types.
    We meaning @Jeff Head and myself both also seem to be agreed that a Tiltrotor seems the superior to a helicopter platform.
    Again we are of one mind on the stated needs. However it is how we decide to reach a solution that we differ.
    Based on this statement I believe then that you would argue for the full on conversions EV22 as opposed to the roll on kit option derived from the set up Mentioned
    This requires not just Intigration of the "Top hat" array but also extensive modifications to the fuselage to allow for a HVAC pressurisation. V22 was original designed to replace the CH46 "Frog" Seaknight helicopter of the USMC and expanded since then as a result the Marines Boeing and Textron (Bell) left two issues that have never been solved with the V22. The first is it's small cargo hold designed based off the CH46 for the short lived M151 MUTT with it's narrow width. The second is that it was left unpressurized like most helicopters. To date the only pressurised tiltrotor has been the AW609 which was developed for VIP use as an alternative to a biz Jet/Helicopters.
    Lacking of such demands that the crew of a EV22 would have to operate with oxygen masks and a lower altitude than that of the E2 series. This is a hinderence to getting the most out of the radar set as the Crew would be limited to the time on Oxygen and effects of cold weather.
    The alternative would demand a redesigned fuselage to accommodate the crew for a higher operating ceiling. This would increase weight and price and basically result in a new aircraft with a Run of maybe 150. Although if you have taken that much work for the program it could be that at that point offered as a replacement of E2 as well which would farther increase a potential run.
    By contrast the MUX wouldn't be just for the carrier wing. It has potential for across the fleet as an ASW and as a ISR drone. The Marines want it for there operations to. It has potential for the Army as well.

    images (7).jpeg
    By the estimates of your own web site a Izumo class could hold 12 F35B, 8 V22 and 8 H60J ASW/SAR birds at max more likely less in operations.
    MV22B can suport a number of roles potential tanker, Assault, COD but EV22 is a dedicated AEW to intigrate them into the Izumo you would need to trade off MV22B. At a minimum 2. Leaving 6 MV22.
    Now a EV247 could take the place of 2 SH60J allowing the full MV22 load. Yes some reduced capacity from a smaller radar, and depending upon implementation it might still be a usable ASW platform.

    For Dokdo the first ship of the class can only carry 1 V22. The second 2.
    Because of the smaller size of V247 it would be a far easier Intigration replacing UH1 or UH60 helicopters.

    This also applies to the America and Wasp even the QE class. America class in light carrier configuration is supposed to be about 20 F35B and 2 MH60. It would be far easier to support that load out with V247 carried by Escourt than EV22. In I'm more normal loads 12 MV22, 6 F35B, 4 CH53K, a mix of 7 Vipers or Venoms and 2 MH60. By using the V22 as the base one of the largest aircraft in the air wing gets traded off. For the America or wasp class those V22 are for the Marines. They have to question just what they need to transport. That makes things harder. By contrast V247 could go for a smaller spot making deck operations far easier.

    V22 C2 and E2 all take over the decks of CVN when being moved, landed or taken off. They also dominate hanger spaces. V247 is sized as small as a UH1. It easily would fit in smaller hanger spaces like those of LHA and DDH.

    On range of operations the designation Bell used for there V247 is as in theory 2 V247 could supply round the clock coverage 24-7. .
    We are already seeing radars of far more power being shifted to drone platforms Multi-Platform Radar Technology Insertion Program and Sigint on Global hawk for example.
    Although there would be trade offs it's just more practical I think.
    1) The AEW kits could be built off existing SearchWater/Cerberus kits at least for export.
    2) less impact on deck operations allowing those already using V22 The USMC and Japan to not have to trade off troop operations for AEW needs. And even be based off Escourt.
    Those with more worried about onboard space would have less issues the platform being when stowed the size of a common medium/light helicopter type.
    3) Multirole. ASW, ISR, Sigint are all already in the MUX plan. Meaning that adoption by allies as well as the U.S. doesn't limit it to just the carrier deck The same aircraft with a different kit could support DDG, FFG, LPD assets even expeditionary and ground forces. That would be a major selling point to Japan, Korea and the UK.
    4) Being unmanned means the issues of oxygen Being refuelable means that it could just keep flying and tanking this means that the aircraft is not limited by human factors like fatigue or hypoxia.
    5)in the works. V247 is being offered as part of the MAGTF Unmanned Aircraft System Expeditionary (MUX) via the Marines and NAVAir
     
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