CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
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Years ago before the advance of modern steel cold weather can be more than nuissance It could actually end up in ship suddenly breaking up due to embrittlement case in point is librerty ship
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Liberty Ship Design Flaws
Many early Liberty ships were affected by deck and hull cracks and indeed several were lost. About 1,200 ships suffered from cracks during the war (about 30% of all Liberty-class ships), and 3 were lost when the ship suddenly split in two. Though the work force was largely untrained in the method of welding ships together, it was not worker error that caused these failures. Rather, the failures were caused by a design oversight.

The cause of the failures was discovered by Constance Tipper, an engineering professor at Cambridge. She found that the grade of steel used to make Liberty ships suffered from embrittlement, in which materials become brittle. Ships operating in the North Atlantic were often exposed to temperatures below a critical temperature, which changed the failure mechanism from ductile to brittle. Because the hulls were welded together, the cracks could propagate across very large distances; this would not have been possible in riveted ships.

A crack stress concentrator contributed to many of the failures. Many of the cracks were nucleated at an edge where a weld was positioned next to a hatch; the edge of the crack and the weld itself both acted as crack concentrators. Also contributing to failures was heavy overloading of the ships, which increased the stress on the hull. Engineers applied several reinforcements to the ship hulls to arrest crack propagation and initiation problems.

modern steels are also subject to "embrittlement" particularly HS-80 and HS-100 which are used extensively in nuclear submarines,,, so, that's why they test submarines very carefully after a "shipyard" visit where the hull may have been opened to add or subtract equipment....

steel is a beautiful thing, but with strength comes different properties!
 

Iron Man

Major
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modern steels are also subject to "embrittlement" particularly HS-80 and HS-100 which are used extensively in nuclear submarines,,, so, that's why they test submarines very carefully after a "shipyard" visit where the hull may have been opened to add or subtract equipment....

steel is a beautiful thing, but with strength comes different properties!
I think you mean "HY-80" and "HY-100". I didn't know either of these steels were particularly more prone to embrittlement compared to other steels.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I think you mean "HY-80" and "HY-100". I didn't know either of these steels were particularly more prone to embrittlement compared to other steels.

your exactly right Iron Man, yes I did mean HY-80 and HY-100, amazing alloy's, but with amazing strength comes the difficulty of welding, its difficult to find a rod material that is as strong as the parent metal, and welds mean lots of localized heat, and cooling, but yes HY-80 is very difficult to achieve a clean weld, and HY-100 dang near impossible... I did a bit of research myself the other day, but basically wiki type stuff..

If you could do a little more research, and possibly post a short link, I think we would all be more knowledgeable and able to appreciate some of the difficulties "raising the bar" represents in the real world.

now I 'm not implying that modern steels are weak, but that these incredibly high tensile steels bring with them a myriad of difficulties working with them...

they have changed the operational capabilities of nuclear submarines exponentially, the US build single hull nuke boats, they will go very deep, in fact I believe test depth on the "Seawolf is around 1400 ft, which if I'm not mistaken is approx. 2/3s of 'crush depth which would be around 2100ft..

I also believe the Russian Akula II will go deeper still??

It would be very interesting to know what steel the Chinese are using on the aircraft carriers and submarines??
 
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Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
your exactly right Iron Man, yes I did mean HY-80 and HY-100, amazing alloy's, but with amazing strength comes the difficulty of welding, its difficult to find a rod material that is as strong as the parent metal, and welds mean lots of localized heat, and cooling, but yes HY-80 is very difficult to achieve a clean weld, and HY-100 dang near impossible... I did a bit of research myself the other day, but basically wiki type stuff..

If you could do a little more research, and possibly post a short link, I think we would all be more knowledgeable and able to appreciate some of the difficulties "raising the bar" represents in the real world.

now I 'm not implying that modern steels are weak, but that these incredibly high tensile steels bring with them a myriad of difficulties working with them...

they have changed the operational capabilities of nuclear submarines exponentially, the US build single hull nuke boats, they will go very deep, in fact I believe test depth on the "Seawolf is around 1400 ft, which if I'm not mistaken is approx. 2/3s of 'crush depth which would be around 2100ft..

I also believe the Russian Akula II will go deeper still??

It would be very interesting to know what steel the Chinese are using on the aircraft carriers and submarines??
Last I read on these steels both types are considered weldable steels, while the HY-130 is considered unweldable or at least very poorly weldable. I'll try to find the link at some point. Also, based on my admittedly limited understanding of metallurgy, weldability is not related to susceptibility to embrittlement and is instead related to ductility.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Why do you think long lasting reliable turbine blades and HB turbofans are one of the hardest things in the world to make? ;) you need to worry about ALL the facets of the alloy and the manufacturing process. To 99.9% of the population they look at the fan blades on their Airbus or 787s and think it's similar to their ceiling fans or the old school metal desk fan.
anyway I know OT, but this was a good throw in since we're always talking aircraft engines and material science.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Why do you think long lasting reliable turbine blades and HB turbofans are one of the hardest things in the world to make? ;) you need to worry about ALL the facets of the alloy and the manufacturing process. To 99.9% of the population they look at the fan blades on their Airbus or 787s and think it's similar to their ceiling fans or the old school metal desk fan.
anyway I know OT, but this was a good throw in since we're always talking aircraft engines and material science.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator

true, and with steels and welding there is considerable and layered testing, hoping to find design and construction flaws before a catastrophic failure mode results in the loss of a vessel or an aircraft.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Why do you think long lasting reliable turbine blades and HB turbofans are one of the hardest things in the world to make? ;) you need to worry about ALL the facets of the alloy and the manufacturing process. To 99.9% of the population they look at the fan blades on their Airbus or 787s and think it's similar to their ceiling fans or the old school metal desk fan.
anyway I know OT, but this was a good throw in since we're always talking aircraft engines and material science.

Yes kwaigonegin and this conversation usually leads to a dead end

As most people seem to think that way, and not only are these blades precision engineered to extremely high tolerances when you move from prototype to mass production in manufacturing you lose the tight tolerances on these blades and whole project thing falls apart, you need consistency over large scale over long time, its probably easier to enrich uranium

Making high bypass blades is therefore classed as holy grail of aviation sector only few country’s have cracked it toughest job in the business
 
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