Trade War with China

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Biscuits

Major
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Chinese Officials Becoming Wary of a Quick Trade Deal

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Lol Just Chinese officials not so sure? Look at all the investors (holding) who already priced the uncertainty into the stocks.

There’s little reason for them to NOT stall. Every day passed is Trump more in hot water and more damage to the US with little impact on China.

Unless Trump can turn that situation around, they have no incentive to sign a ceasefire. Xi isn’t under pressure to get a quick win, and it’s not like the risks of carrying on is outstanding.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It's pretty much assured that Trump throws in new demands to the very last second in any negotiation. I wouldn't be surprised if Xi goes to Mar-a-Lago and Trump makes a unacceptable new demand and walks away. Xi should consider that the US is ready to embarrass him. Remember Obama at Copenhagen at the UN environmental summit demanded that the developed world had to do nothing when it came to climate change. All the sacrifices had to come from the developing world assuring China would object thus diverting the eventual blame on the US because the US Congress wasn't going to ratify any treaty agreed upon by the world thus the summit's failure would be on the US and a bad mark on Obama's legacy. Obama spun the summit's failure on China. Obama was blaming the summit's failure on China before it even started so China sent a low-level official to meet with Obama during the summit to which he arrogantly felted dissed thus started Obama's Pivot to Asia and the worst Sino-US relations since the darkest days of the Cold War. See what they'll do just for their own personal ego? And Obama was a liberal...
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
Really? FT

Do you expect us to rely solely on a research paper by 2 Chinese University of Hong Kong PhD Students? Not saying they are wrong but they do not carry much weight in the overall scheme of things. FT is selling this as something more significant than what it is.

The paper even conclude with " our estimates suggest that the extent by which local governments exaggerate local GDP accelerated after 2008, but the magnitude of the adjustment by the NBS did not change in tandem. As a consequence, our best estimate is that the true growth rate of GDP is probably overstated by almost 2 percentage points from 2008 to 2016. "

Not as much conviction as the article suggest and that graph is nowhere to be found in the research paper.

From elsewhere:
"
I have one big issue with the research (which I just finished reading on Brookings Institution), there was a huge tax change that took place in 2008-2009.

On Jan 1st, 2009, China shifted from a corporate investment VAT tax to a corporate consumption VAT (also known as the enterprise tax in China). At the time China was in a huge investment boom and this made the tax change much more of a tax cut then expected. This was followed by a tax cut from 6% to 3% on industrial SMEs and significantly increased tax rebates on exports. Premier Wen Jiabao claimed that cut over $150 billion from industrial taxes in 2009 alone.

Source:
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The authors acknowledge the switch from the corporate tax to the EU-style VAT in 2016 (which is where the analysis ends), but make no mention of the 2008-2009 tax change. This is concerning because the date they point to as the beginning of “tax discrepancy” is also 2008-2009.

I actually emailed the main author about this to see what he says. Will update you all if he responds.

From prior research experience, I had the pleasant opportunity of meeting Professor Chang-Tai. So I’m hoping to get a more intellectually stimulating response.

I’m expecting him to acknowledge a few shortcomings of his research, like these tax cuts in 2009, while pointing out that the broader point of tax growth discrepancy with reporting GDP growth remains.

For example, $150 billion of taxes over the 8 years they focus on would add up to $1.2 trillion less tax revenue. But this assumes the tax cuts and rebates continued for the time period, and that tax enforcement did not improve (it did although we don’t know how much).

I’ll let y’all know how he responds though.

I believe the most unexpected discovery from this research is that the National Bureau of Statistics is very truthful with their statistics and are not biasing the results. This disproves the oft-made claim that China’s government manipulates its GDP results in some weird long-running conspiracy to deceive foreigners.

Their conclusion is that Chinese economic statistics are truthful, but not very accurate.

I am a bit confused why they claim that 1994-2007 GDP growth numbers were more accurate while, in the next sentence, saying the statistics were less rigorous. If the Chinese economy grew less than reported before the global financial crisis, then China’s 2008-2016 growth statistics would be underreported. Likewise, if China’s economy grew more than reported before the global financial crisis, then 2008-2016 would be over-reported.

"
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
It's pretty much assured that Trump throws in new demands to the very last second in any negotiation. I wouldn't be surprised if Xi goes to Mar-a-Lago and Trump makes a unacceptable new demand and walks away. Xi should consider that the US is ready to embarrass him. Remember Obama at Copenhagen at the UN environmental summit demanded that the developed world had to do nothing when it came to climate change. All the sacrifices had to come from the developing world assuring China would object thus diverting the eventual blame on the US because the US Congress wasn't going to ratify any treaty agreed upon by the world thus the summit's failure would be on the US and a bad mark on Obama's legacy. Obama spun the summit's failure on China. Obama was blaming the summit's failure on China before it even started so China sent a low-level official to meet with Obama during the summit to which he arrogantly felted dissed thus started Obama's Pivot to Asia and the worst Sino-US relations since the darkest days of the Cold War. See what they'll do just for their own personal ego? And Obama was a liberal...

Hmm, if so they are not fooling many people, at least not outside of domestic audience. First time I hear US tried to pin climate summit problems on China, the general consensus I’ve heard my whole life is that US is the one that causes problems on these summits by getting in the way of agreements and refusing to agree to limits.

AFAIK China is viewed as a major source of emissions, but also as a leader in green tech that does noticeable stuff to improve the environment.

Ultimately I think it will be irrelevant if Xi goes or does not go. As long as US doesn’t actually provide any major incentive to end the war, Xi has no reason to.

What US is offering now is pretty good, since they’ve always had huge tariffs and unfair restrictions even before the trade war. BUT the catch is that China needs a reliable way to prevent US from turning it’s back on the deal.

Personally, I think Xi should keep up pressure until US honors the 1979 joint communique. Opening the US market is good, but China isn’t going to rely on US market in the future anyways.
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
Hmm, if so they are not fooling many people, at least not outside of domestic audience. First time I hear US tried to pin climate summit problems on China, the general consensus I’ve heard my whole life is that US is the one that causes problems on these summits by getting in the way of agreements and refusing to agree to limits.

AFAIK China is viewed as a major source of emissions, but also as a leader in green tech that does noticeable stuff to improve the environment.

Ultimately I think it will be irrelevant if Xi goes or does not go. As long as US doesn’t actually provide any major incentive to end the war, Xi has no reason to.

What US is offering now is pretty good, since they’ve always had huge tariffs and unfair restrictions even before the trade war. BUT the catch is that China needs a reliable way to prevent US from turning it’s back on the deal.

Personally, I think Xi should keep up pressure until US honors the 1979 joint communique. Opening the US market is good, but China isn’t going to rely on US market in the future anyways.

I like this idea.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Do you believe in fork-tounge Trump & his lackies? He's such a liar he'll sell his mother for 12 silver coins!

No, but there are ways to ensure he sticks to the treaty.

For example, they could make an agreement that forces cases and investment limits to go through a bilateral court.

In the case of getting US to honor the 1979 joint communique, that would only be a one time event, so American behavior a year afterwards is irrelevant.
 
now (actually before I saw the outrageous reference to Trump's mother above
#3976 davidau, Today at 5:08 AM
which I then reported)
noticed the tweet
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China's foreign trade of goods fell 13.8% y-o-y in Feb to $266.36 billion, customs data showed Friday. However, deducting the Spring Festival factor, China's foreign trade rose 3.9%, with exports up 1.5% and imports up 6.5%, respectively, in USD-denominated terms.

D1HTQJEV4AEKV58.jpg
 

Brumby

Major
now (actually before I saw the outrageous reference to Trump's mother above
#3976 davidau, Today at 5:08 AM
which I then reported)
noticed the tweet
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!





China's foreign trade of goods fell 13.8% y-o-y in Feb to $266.36 billion, customs data showed Friday. However, deducting the Spring Festival factor, China's foreign trade rose 3.9%, with exports up 1.5% and imports up 6.5%, respectively, in USD-denominated terms.

D1HTQJEV4AEKV58.jpg
I actually traded the currency movement coming off this news. The numbers are different from the news wire.

upload_2019-3-8_21-51-20.png
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
From elsewhere:
"
I have one big issue with the research (which I just finished reading on Brookings Institution), there was a huge tax change that took place in 2008-2009.

On Jan 1st, 2009, China shifted from a corporate investment VAT tax to a corporate consumption VAT (also known as the enterprise tax in China). At the time China was in a huge investment boom and this made the tax change much more of a tax cut then expected. This was followed by a tax cut from 6% to 3% on industrial SMEs and significantly increased tax rebates on exports. Premier Wen Jiabao claimed that cut over $150 billion from industrial taxes in 2009 alone.

Source:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The authors acknowledge the switch from the corporate tax to the EU-style VAT in 2016 (which is where the analysis ends), but make no mention of the 2008-2009 tax change. This is concerning because the date they point to as the beginning of “tax discrepancy” is also 2008-2009.

I actually emailed the main author about this to see what he says. Will update you all if he responds.

From prior research experience, I had the pleasant opportunity of meeting Professor Chang-Tai. So I’m hoping to get a more intellectually stimulating response.

I’m expecting him to acknowledge a few shortcomings of his research, like these tax cuts in 2009, while pointing out that the broader point of tax growth discrepancy with reporting GDP growth remains.

For example, $150 billion of taxes over the 8 years they focus on would add up to $1.2 trillion less tax revenue. But this assumes the tax cuts and rebates continued for the time period, and that tax enforcement did not improve (it did although we don’t know how much).

I’ll let y’all know how he responds though.

I believe the most unexpected discovery from this research is that the National Bureau of Statistics is very truthful with their statistics and are not biasing the results. This disproves the oft-made claim that China’s government manipulates its GDP results in some weird long-running conspiracy to deceive foreigners.

Their conclusion is that Chinese economic statistics are truthful, but not very accurate.

I am a bit confused why they claim that 1994-2007 GDP growth numbers were more accurate while, in the next sentence, saying the statistics were less rigorous. If the Chinese economy grew less than reported before the global financial crisis, then China’s 2008-2016 growth statistics would be underreported. Likewise, if China’s economy grew more than reported before the global financial crisis, then 2008-2016 would be over-reported.

"

Follow up from a third party:

"
If your query is with regard to the the difference between Investment-type VAT and Consumption-type VAT, it's as follows: Under Production/Investment-type VAT, the taxes levied on the purchases of fixed assets necessary for production, otherwise known as capital goods, are not allowed to be credited against VAT (Output) on sales of goods. Consumption-type VAT which is general used by the majority of nations allows for the VAT (input) on fixed assets to be credited against (output) VAT on Sales, be it straight-up or amortized over a period of time which differs per country.

Anyway, this change in treatment of VAT on capital goods and VAT rebates would have significantly reduced government revenues in relation to VAT. This is significant as the premise of the study is to re-estimate the growth figures based on publicly available data on VAT.
"

"
Very good response.

I’m quite surprised the authors didn’t mention this. It could explain why tax revenue growth from industrial companies was significantly lower than expected relative to pre-2008-2009.
"

and

"
The tax revenue growth relative to reported GDP growth trend changed significantly in 2008-2009. Why?

I reckon it is partly this January 1st 2009 tax change to tax investment relatively less, right before China’s Investment share as a % of GDP rose to a record high (in 2010). I also believe this is partly related to lower tax enforcement during the Great Financial Crisis aftermath. And to some overreporting of GDP growth.

My back of napkin calculations put this overreported GDP growth at 3-5% and not 12-16% like the authors.

"
 
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