The reason for India to go from 5.56 to 7.62x39?

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by ohan_qwe, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. ohan_qwe
    Offline

    ohan_qwe New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    50
  2. TerraN_EmpirE
    Offline

    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,366
    Likes Received:
    10,707
    Oh yes it can.
    INSAS is considered a bit of a joke. The weapon has had quality control issues that it never really resolved. Has been know for disastrous magazine problems and generally seen as flawed. Likely a huge list of other issues exists. I have no idea the CQ of Indian 5.56x45mm ammo but if it's like the weapon I can only imagine.
    If the ammo is wrong the weapon is wrong.
    AK103 rebranded to 203 is pretty much the classic AK and end of the day the AK works. It's brute force work but it works. As long as you don't drop it in mud and it has fair ammo it shoots.
    The AK design was really optimized for 7.62x39mm and if they had to drop INSAS they needed to plug the gap quick so AK103 off the shelf.
     
    Broccoli likes this.
  3. ohan_qwe
    Offline

    ohan_qwe New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    50
    Please read the whole sentence "It can't be because of the rifle as the rifle is made in 5.56 too(AK-201). Or is your point that AK-201 is less reliable?
     
  4. TerraN_EmpirE
    Offline

    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,366
    Likes Received:
    10,707
    I read it but you seem to be a bit misinformed on this.
    INSAS is not the AK201.
    Infact I don't think the Indians even use The 200 series they used the 100 series that has been revealed but not in 5.56x45mm. They used the Indian designed Indian produced INSAS which proved troubled.
    https://modernfirearms.net/en/assault-rifles/india-assault-rifles/insas-eng/
     
  5. TerraN_EmpirE
    Offline

    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,366
    Likes Received:
    10,707
    What the Indians have is a mixed bag of western and eastern weapons.
    Pakistan is the same. Some units have 5.56x45mm some 7.62x39mm and some 7.62x51mm.
    https://medium.com/war-is-boring/indias-anti-terror-troops-despise-their-assault-rifle-3fcafa392aaa
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...-zones-with-aks-cites-insas-as-defective/amp/
    Last I had heard the Indians were not however dropping 5.56x45mm entirely but targeting it to elite units well 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm rifles would form out the bulk of there forces.
    https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india...equip-indian-army-soldiers-1352324-2018-09-29

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/02/14/confirmed-sig-sauer-sig716-for-india/

    Ak200 series only appeared in the block at the end of last year. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...s-promoting-the-new-kalashnikov-ak200-series/
    AK100 series was based off the AK74M but expanded to export. AK200series adds rails and a few minor tweaks off the AK12 production and adds it to the 100 series.
    AK101 vs 103 doesn't matter that much between the two. The AK103 feeds a little better because of the magazine taper and the AK long stroke but 5.56x45mm is a softer shooter.
    Personally I think the IWI ACE smokes them both.
     
  6. ohan_qwe
    Offline

    ohan_qwe New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    50
    What I ment was that India could have replaced INSAS with AK201 if they liked 5.56.
     
  7. Broccoli
    Offline

    Broccoli Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2012
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    542
    It's because Indians don't know what they are doing and that fact becomes crystal clear if you look at any of their modernization programs.
     
  8. TerraN_EmpirE
    Offline

    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,366
    Likes Received:
    10,707
    Well then say so. I don't read minds.
    However I say not nessisarily.
    1) at the time of those reports AK201 didn't exist. They could have gone to AK101.
    2) being blunt 5.56x45mm AK suck. As does the rail system on an AK.
    So although they could doesn't mean they should.

    Why do 5.56Ak suck? Ak as a whole is a dated platform it has undergone tweaks and improvement to be sure but it's still a product of the late 1940s early 1950s. It was then revolutionary but when 5.56x45mm NATO appeared on the scene it came with the AR15 series. AR do a number of things far better. First is recoil.
    AR rifles are a continuous line from butt pad to muzzle and the stock contains the recever extension. What this means is that when firing the bolt cycles back and has more space of movement inside the recever meaning the bolt can use up excess momentum against the springs. the impulse is directed straight back with less muzzle rise.
    The 5.56x45mm round farther sweetens this by being a fairly soft shooter. Because of the small size.
    Where on an AK the bolt moves back then hits the recever box the stock is angled down. For felt recoil the impact of the bolt hitting the end of the recever has less space then on the AR so more felt recoil and by being directed into the shooter at an angle the rifle wants to pivot up.
    Farther exasperating this is the AK has system. The Long stroke has system was designed to use the maximum possible amount of gas to cycle the bolt. This "over gassing" means that AK can somewhat clear some issues but at the cost of increased bolt momentum meaning increased felt recoil and muzzle climb. Many people who have hands on with a wide range of AK types prefer the AK74 type with 5.45x39mm as the high velocity small diameter round was similarly to the AR designed for reduced recoil force.

    AR rifles were not created with rail system. Neither were AK rifles however the "coach gun" style break open of the AR proved advantageous for mounting rails as the upper recever shell doesn't shift and provides a solid housing for the barrel and trinion meaning that optics mounted to it don't loose zero. The AK doesn't have a upper recever it has a top cover that was designed just to keep larger debris out of the action for ease of maintenance it's removable and to allow silt and dust to exit the weapon it's designed loosely as such mounting sights on the top cover has proven difficult. Because though firing and maintenance The the sights loose zero. The AK designer infact was well aware of this fact and mounted the original hard sights on the barrel trinion a more solid component of the rifle.
    AK200 series rifles attempt to fix this with a hinged top cover, but that still means some degree of walking zero that is less when new more when old.

    The result of this is that 5.56x45mm has far more available rifles designed to get more from it than the AK 5.56x45mm. AK types in this caliber are actually a bit of a novelty. Sure you have AK101, the Polish AK rifles and some Bulgarian types the IWI ACE. Mostly you find AR15, G36, Tavor, AR18 clones, AUG ecta ecta.

    7.62x39mm was a bit of a weapon of a captive audience so to speak. Those who had it had it for a long time normally had there own production or easy access and not to many other options. It's a weapon of convenience that can be fielded in numbers cheaply and without needing to give large amounts of training. For it the 5.45x39mm round was tailored to get the best from the platform. But that round really don't catch on the way 7.62x39mm did. And by the time The ol'Warsaw pact was ready to field wider batches the wall had fallen most of the pact joined NATO.
    In this case the point was India sees Military procurement programs as a state run social program.
    IE there weapons were meant to keep people employed more than procurement.
    INSAS was such. Like the old Maoist Steel forge in every backyard.
    Quality was less important than production. And quality control suffered. They attempted to create a modern rifle. But it was already a generation behind when it entered service. They wanted indigenous manufacturing but more to keep employees than product. They wanted to export but basically had to give the rifles away to do that.
    When it faced issues they attempted to cover it up when it became clear it was still troubled they actually finally tried to make fixes but still were left with a obsolete rifle that had issues.
    So they opened a "modernisation project". Yet the results were still iffy or unrealistic. So they broke down and had to enlist foreign assistance.

    This is where AK203 comes in and the Sig716 and the Caracal.
    An improved AKM, a modified AR10 and a Piston AR15.
     
  9. Mohsin77
    Offline

    Mohsin77 Junior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    266
    5.56 NATO is the worst rifle caliber ever. In Canada it's not even allowed for hunting deer I think (its not humane, i.e. doesnt kill the animal fast enough.) It's only suitable for rodents but it's saving grace is low recoil and low weight. Unfortunately, the best rifles in the world are usually in 5.56, case in point: H&K 416.

    7.62 NATO is a beast of a round. However, you cant clear a room with it. It will go straight through 2 walls and multiple people between them. Plus its recoil is a bitch. It's best for DMRs like the 417, more suited for open environments and longer ranges.

    7.62×39 is a good mix. It retains energy better than the 5.56, is lighter and has less recoil than 7.62 NATO. Plus the AK is a legendary platform, especially a modernized one with rails.

    There are reports that PAK went with the CZ BREN 2 in 7.62x39. If true, it's a wise decision.
     
    gelgoog likes this.
  10. Mohsin77
    Offline

    Mohsin77 Junior Member
    Registered Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    266
    Sure.. but they also do other, more important things far worse... Like actually firing reliably when i press the damn trigger. Standard DI AR's arent too good with that part lol.

    ....but with that said, a piston AR, like HK's 416 on the other hand.. that's a whole other beast.
     
Loading...

Share This Page