The reason for India to go from 5.56 to 7.62x39?


Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
And No I can actually show you
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it was interest from the SOF in SMG sized rifles.
" Before the (HK)416 came along the guns being used for CQB purposes was the M4 Carbine with a 14 and a half inch barrel and also the Mp5, And the issue there is the M4 is a great gun and it did very well in the role except, it's a little bit to big."
Wow, you completely missed the part where he says (from the same video which you linked):

"The issue is the direct impingement system has limitations" @ min 2:00

And here's another video where he says it more directly:


"A gun like the 416 will do better than a Direct Impingement Gun" @ 0:27


Vickers goes on to say, that the short-stroke of the 416 is "even better" than the AK's long-stroke piston. So in his ranking, HK's short stroke piston is #1, the AK long stroke is #2, and DI guns are third.

... I should stop arguing with you right here... but to be polite I'll respond to the rest of your points (this time.)

Firstly, why do you think he is saying this? Here's the answer: PHYSICS! That is the reason the "short barreled" DI AR's had serious issues, because all the faults of the DI system get magnified with a shorter barrel which increases the heating and fouling problems in the receiver (and add to this the cycling problem which you mentioned, which I totally forgot about lol, thanks.) It should be obvious to you why, from a mechanics standpoint. When you shorten the barrel, the gas feeding the bolt is going to be hotter, more pressurized and dirtier. This problem simply doesn't exist in the piston system, of any barrel length, because the gas never gets into the receiver.

Now, again, why do you think Vickers said the M4 is a "little too big"? You can get all the barrel lengths in the M4 platform that you can with the 416. In fact, the 416 is quite a bit heavier in the same lengths. Yet, Vickers said the M4 is "too big"... WHY?

Because once you start reducing barrel sizes (for CQB especially) and get down to the 10.4inch barrel, the M4 completely fails here because of its DI system. The minimum barrel length for an M4 is basically 14.5 inches for it to have any hope of reliability, to reduce that overpressure. Even if you ignore the obvious problem of fouling (fanboys usually ignore than by saying that is up to the operator to clean and maintain it) you still can't get over the cycling issues. But none of this is a problem for a piston system like the 416, which you can run in 10.4 without reliability problems, either with fouling, or cycling. That's why Vickers is saying the M4 is "too big" because it's DI system has these "limitations."

And this is coming from a man who used DI ARs for most of his life, and while he was in DELTA. And he is objectively admitting its "limitations" versus the piston 416, precisely because of the piston's reliability. And yet you are arguing with me on something so obvious and wasting both of our time here. The guy was literally involved in the development of this gun! If he loved the DI system so much, why would he switch to the piston?!


Only parts of socom Adopted the HK416 and it still widely uses the M4A1 infact it just issues upgrades.
The units who don't use it, are the ones who can't afford to. JSOC SMU units fully adopted the 416 a long time ago. Vickers himself was involved in development and getting it accepted in DELTA. And Seal 6 obviously uses it, they used it to kill OBL.

Now adding the Piston did cause issues when combined with the M855A1. The rounds were damaging the upper and breaking bolts of the HK416 because the Piston system wasn't designed for the high pressure ammo
You're citing old and outdated news. These issues were fixed already:
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In fact, the only problem now for the 416/M27, which should concern you, is that they are thinking about replacing the 5.56 round entirely lol:

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another issue that has come up is piston tilt where in the Piston in cycle doesn't go back into battery properly leaving the weapon jammed.
As far as I know, that "Piston tilt" issue only ever occurred in crappy US made guns for the civilian market. No HK/FN/SIG or AK piston system ever had this issue.

Americans, British(SF), Australia (SF), Argentina, Canada, Chinese Units, Iranian military units via Chinese rifles, Vietnam, Israel, Bahrain, France SF, Philippines, Pakistan, India, Albania, Syria, Russian SF, Japanese SF, Columbia,
These are a few off the top of my head. There are many many more. Often the choice of Special Forces units who know how to use the rifle and it's features.
I was obviously referring to manufacturing, not usage. Of course a lot of nations ended up using ARs, because of the ton of accessories and ergonomic benefits which the AR platform always offered, far above anything else. But this is the same reason the world's SOF forces so quickly started adopting the 416, because it kept that advantage but dropped the crappy DI.

That can happen with any rifle or pistol or any weapon at all.
Fact is mammals are hard to kill.
And killing a human being isn't like the movies. People have survived AK rounds people have survived getting building dropped on them....................
Great speech man. Now go tell that to the US Army that wants to ditch the 556 lolz.

Here's another link:
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"Military leaders and the soldiers on the ground have long been critical of the 5.56mm round, saying it doesn't provide the range and firepower needed on the battlefield. Combat After Action Reports point out that in may cases, U.S. war fighters are outmatched by their foes, who often carry larger caliber rifles, putting U.S. troops at a disadvantaged in range, accuracy and firepower."

For my part, I hope the US ARMY listens to people like you and sticks with the 556... I wouldn't want them switching to anything better and more effective lolz.

5.56x45mm was designed to offer a round that was lighter in weight and smaller in size allowing more to be carried by the soldier, less recoil to allow easier shooting in automatic fire and longer range M4 as an effective range of 500 meters from a 368mm barrel, an AKM >350 meters from a 414mm barrel.
Yea and it was great in theory, but then Vietnam happened and soldiers realized that the 556 would get deflected even when hitting a leaf, and completely miss the target because the frekkin bullet has no mass behind it.... and that's, when their crappy DI M16s actually worked in that jungle without frekkin jamming lolz.

Cleaning is needed no matter the rifle DI, Short strike or long stroke but what I am hearing from you is myths and rumors regurgitated again and again. You don't need to lube and clean a AR everyday. But like your car it should be serviced ever so often. It sounds to me like you were going above and beyond because of so called experts.
Physics is not a "myth". We're talking about thermodynamics and Newtonian kinematics here. And for all the reasons I mentioned, the DI design sucks.

or better yet put a condom on the muzzle.
Yea, make sure to do that with your DI M4...

I'll trust the reliability of a good piston system like the 416, or an AK, which doesn't need babysitting.

1) Bren 2 is multicaliber meaning that it can be set up as 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm. And last images of SSH I saw were a group of them with SIg 556 PDW and M4A1.
2) the Pakistani have not placed a firm order for Bren yet.
3)in September Colt got a FMS contract for M4A1 to Pakistan.
Cuz we can't afford the 416, like JSOC lolz. I wish we could... And the SSG used AKs for the longest time until they finally got sick of not having the fancy accessories etc. So they started inducting the cheapest ARs they could find, hence DI ARs. I hope they eventually move away from them, but let's see.

Now case closed.
yes, please, just stop. this is getting annoying.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Wow, you completely missed the part where he says (from the same video which you linked):
Wow now you are trying to spin the point I made into your point.
The limitation have to do with timing the shorter the gas system the more problems of the timing. A piston partially gets around this partially but the shorter the Piston the more problems it has to.
That is the reason the "short barreled" DI AR's had serious issues, because all the faults of the DI system get magnified with a shorter barrel which increases the heating and fouling problems in the receiver (and add to this the cycling problem which you mentioned, which I totally forgot about
That's why the Russian have dropped the Aks74U because at its small size the Piston system operates far faster then it should generating heat, reducing parts life.
You're citing old and outdated news. These issues were fixed already:
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Yes but then so you seem to insists on doing in regards to the Internal Piston of the M4.
The fix was by the way the Same as most of the issues of the M4A1 of late. The PMAG.
Changing the feed system.
I was obviously referring to manufacturing
You should read up on who manufactures direct impingement M4 systems. For example FN is a major maker for the US. China's Norinco is as well. Germany has makers to.
Yea and it was great in theory, but then Vietnam
One myth, two ammo used was not 5.56x45mm NATO that was standardized by the Belgians.
Great speech man. Now go tell that to the US Army that wants to ditch the 556 lolz.
To defeat Level IV body armor now being made in Russian and China
The units who don't use it, are the ones who can't afford to.
The cost of HK416 has come down A lot in the last few years. But my personal favorite in this is that MARSOC Raiders could have taken M27 rifles from USMC stocks. They turned them down.
Also the non JSOC units who are getting the URG. Those URG kits cost as much as an HK416.
Yea, make sure to do that with your DI M4...

I'll trust the reliability of a good piston system like the 416, or an AK, which doesn't need babysitting
You have to do the same thing with your AK or HK416 to.
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
Wow now you are trying to spin the point I made into your point.
...? my initial statement was about reliability, period.

By definition, that includes cycling problems, on top of the fouling, both of which are inherent "limitations" of the DI mechanism.

But whatever... I don't have time to chase someone running in circles.

Have fun with your DI ARs in 556, i wish you luck (because you will need it lol.)

Good night.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
All weapons have "Limitations" you cannot expect a system to operate beyond its design parameters. So far what this seems to be is an emotional attachment to a weapon system.
Piston systems work but so does Direct impingement.
Place an well built AK in well trained hands and it works well, place a well built AR in well trained hands and it works.
The Indian INSAS was based off the AK Long stroke piston it proved troubled, the L85 used the AR18 short stroke piston system the same as the G36 and HK416 yet it also proved troubled. Why? Most of the issues had nothing to do with the Piston but the magazine's the ammo not being up to spec poor materials and quality control.

Many of the issues you have pointed to are Hearsay and conjectjtural.

In some conditions an AR will have issues in some an AK will as well. I note that you didn't comment on the other videos I posted where in an AK Jammed in mud and AR didn't and both operated well in desert conditions neither lubricated.
You pointed to the FAL and G3. The Isrealis designed the Galil because in desert war conditions it jammed. The. They bought CAR15s. Because they worked and got them for a song.
But they got them for rails.... 1996 was the introduction of the M4 carbine it was also the introductionof G36 a piston operated rifle from HK with built in rail system options. Hell even a built in optic. Yet M4 is more popular.


Back to the topic.

India is not replacing 5.56x45mm with 7.62x39mm. We have I think proven that beyond a doubt.
India is buying 95,000 Caracal 816 an AR piston rifle. Why that Because the UAE bid was $990 a unit.
They are also buying Sig 716 another Piston based AR10 based rifle because again lowest price.
And they are looking to open an AK203 factory.
As such the point of this threat is proven.
 

ohan_qwe

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
India is buying 95k caracal and will license produce 750k ak203. If those number are correct I still think it counts as going to 7.62x39 with some units with 5.56. Kinda like that PLA uses type 95 as it's main rifle with some type 03 supplements for special units.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
India is buying 95k caracal and will license produce 750k ak203. If those number are correct I still think it counts as going to 7.62x39 with some units with 5.56. Kinda like that PLA uses type 95 as it's main rifle with some type 03 supplements for special units.
Fine but that's not exactly replacement of 5.56x45mm NATO with 7.62x39mm.
The Indian Army had over 100,000 that i know of AKM rifles in service for decades starting with a buys in the 1990s.
The INSAS India's home made 5.56x45mm rifle was is believed to have hit 300,000 units made for India and export But the Indian Army is very large 3.5 Million both active and reserve and there is no way that they had pure fleeted INSAS with that many units. As such the Indians always maintained a mix of rifles. Not just INSAS, AK but just about everything under the sun. Including M16, M4, Tavor, AK103, FN SCAR, Sig 550, FN F2000 and more.
As such even with the numbers listed in the orders we know of They are not even going to get three rifles across the whole of there services.
So to use your PLA analogy it would be like the PLA issues Type 95 but PLAMC gets Type 03 but airborne get QST11 well scouts get QC311 and PAP get type 81 well special operations get NAR556 well mountain troops get NAR751 and the reserves get type 56.
 
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