The Main-Armament Level Of Warships Entering Service

Discussion in 'Navy' started by Jura, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. Tam
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    Tam Senior Member
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    Would have to be a big ship to balance that, but the Russians are of course, into big ships. Using a Stereguschy class corvette to illustrate the radar seems quite misleading when they should be using at least a Lider class.
     
  2. Tam
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    Tam Senior Member
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    The Army can't buy enough T-114 Armatas, but I think there might be some technical issues that must be resolved first before they go into a mass buy.

    The Russian Navy is concentrating on nuclear submarines, making surface fleet a second thought. But recently they have kicked up on their frigate program, with another three Admiral Gorshkov class being built, one already in fitting, and two Admiral Grigorovich, not counting the two being built for India.
     
  3. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Senior Member
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    Personally I think the Lidar destroyer is going to be vapourware as it will never be built.
    We can see that the Russians are struggling to even fund Frigate construction, never mind a new class of much more expensive Destroyers.

    And yes, nuclear submarines are just way more useful to Russia than more destroyers.
     
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  4. Tam
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    Tam Senior Member
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    True. The "new" Russian Navy is a reflection of Putin, a calculated mix of charm and intimidation. Intimidation using Kalibr missiles that is. How many times they use the word "Kalibr" in all their press releases regarding any naval ship.

    Nonetheless, there is a sudden interest and spurt in surface warfare ship construction after throwing all their money into submarines. That is why you suddenly got four frigates under construction or fitting (2nd Gorshkov class fitting, 3rd and 4th under construction, one more Grigorovich being constructed for Russia, two under construction sold to India) or more frigates depending on how you really view the Derzky, Stereguschy and Gremyaschy classes as being corvette or frigate. I think Russia, or in particular, Putin has rediscovered the usefulness of surface ships in the light of the Syrian campaign. Doesn't mean they may find funding for large destroyers in the next decade, but they may instead go for an improved or even a Super Gorshkov class instead.

    Going back to the AGAT radar, even with a Super Gorshkov class, which might be a ship of around a Type 052C/D tonnage, 24 tons feel very steep even for that ship. Perhaps something much smaller and around the size of a SMART-L might be more palatable.
     
  5. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Senior Member
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    Syria is really a diversion, because Russia's core interests are in Europe.

    Russia has the bulk of its population, industry and economy located next to the European Union / NATO.
    Yet Russia has an economy some 10x smaller than the European Union or 10x smaller than the USA.

    And if Russia wasn't involved in Syria, would they have devoted more attention to Ukraine?
    The Ukrainian President ran away, partly because he didn't receive enough support and assurances from Russia.
    That triggered the Ukraine War and the current difficulties
     
  6. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Junior Member
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    It was not a funding issue. It was because of the Ukrainian revolution and the embargo on Ukrainian marine gas turbines and diesel engines. It delayed the Russian frigate construction program. In particular the Grigorovich. The Gorshkov is more debatable since it also had delays with the electronics suite which were only solved recently. It is not easy to restart an industry after it has been stopped for over two decades. Most likely those people which had the know-how have retired already. Not to mention that a lot of the naval shipyard experience was in Ukraine, namely the carrier program and the large Slava-class cruisers, most of it stayed there after the USSR broke down.

    The Grigorovich was more on schedule since the design was based on the Talwar. The Talwar was one of the few Russian naval designs that won exports after the USSR broke down.

    I think the Lider class design is unbalanced and goes against current naval doctrine. It wastes a lot of deck space with those totem towers and it has a minuscule amount of VLS cells versus other ships with a similar or even lower weight class. I think they need to back to the drawing board on that one. Contrary to the frigate program the engines are not as much of an issue since Russia has developed next generation nuclear engines for their nuclear icebreaker program which can be used on the Lider.

    I think the main issue here is that Russia has a large deficit in civilian merchant marine construction and their naval shipyard capacity is way too low. I think the Zvezda shipyard upgrades in Vladivostok are an example of things to come. Similar shipyards might be built in the West with large Russian conglomerates ordering ships to keep the shipyards busy.
    They will modernize the existing shipyards in St. Petersburg, build newer dry docks, or both.
    The fact is most of their surface navy is in the Western portion of the country so the most likely place to erect a large shipyard with the capacity to build those large civilian vessels and later large military ships must necessarily be there. If we look at it in terms of where the workforce is available then St. Petersburg is the natural choice to place the facilities.

    Unlike in the previous decade where all these civilian ships were imported at a significant cost to the Russian economy since these typically have been paid in dollars to South Korea, Finland, or whatever, making more of the ships in Russia will both boost their shipyard know-how employment and provide them with the facilities to manufacture military ships in the future. Russia no longer has the oil revenues it had in the last decade due to the crashing oil price. So this means they must increase their amount of purchases from within as they have less foreign currency they can use.
     
    #126 gelgoog, Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  7. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Junior Member
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    So this is what I predict for the future of the Russian surface navy. They will continue with corvette and multi-purpose frigate construction. They will likely expand the orders of their existing classes or modernizations of them. After that they will build that rumored enlarged Gorshkov-class frigate. Because of their lack of foreign naval port access and their large coastline they will need in the medium run to have larger vessels than the NATO countries. So their frigates will become larger. Possibly in the 6000+ ton class like @AndrewS mentioned. Then eventually we will see something to replace the Kirov-class battlecruisers get started before 2025. They will also likely manufacture the LHDs. They might even share the basic hull design or propulsion units and design of the LHDs with the battlecruisers. At least that is what I would do in their place.
     
  8. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Senior Member
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    And why would the large Russian conglomerates order civilian ships with Russian shipbuilders?
    The costs and capabilities are going to be much worse than Japanese/Chinese/Korean shipbuilders.

    And what do those Russian conglomerates need to transport with such ships?
    Remember that Russia isn't a big trading nation. And also that the vast majority of Russia's trade (internal and external) is overland, and it only has a handful of warm water ports that are ice free all year around.
     
  9. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Senior Member
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    Russia may have a large coastline, but that lies mostly in the frozen and unpopulated arctic areas.
    It only has a handful of warm water ports that are ice free all year around.

    I can see them continuing to build frigates, which could be somewhat larger. Frigates are affordable after all.

    But if we're talking about Kirov battlecruisers or LHDs, these are most certainly about power projection in distant waters.
    Actually challenging another surface navy for control of waters would require a significant fleet.
    And diverting significant funds to the construction of such a power projection navy seems silly given the challenges Russia faces in Europe, which has an economy some 10x larger.

    Remember that Russia actually lost Ukraine as a buffer in 2014.
    If they had paid more attention and money to Ukraine (instead of building more ships?), would Ukraine have stayed in a politically neutral or pro-Russian orbit?

    Look at the consequences because Russia felt it had to invade in order to ensure than Ukraine never joins the EU or NATO.
     
  10. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Junior Member
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    Why would they order from Russian shipbuilders? Because modern Russia is a corporatist regime. Kind of like a Fascist regime. In case you never noticed.
    Not to mention that most of the oil & gas industry are basically state controlled. They need oil & gas tankers. Also a lot of the people who own industries which require large bulk carriers like their metals industry (i.e. titanium and aluminum) are basically under the thumb of the Russian government. A large fraction of the Russian merchant fleet will need replacement over the next decade because the ships are near the end of their service life.

    Ships like the Kirovs and the LHDs are important because Russia has a large territory and most of its land area is quite sparse. Let's imagine they need to do a rapid force deployment to the Far East for example? Typically their largest ships are kept in the Northern Fleet precisely because of that. It is midway between the Atlantic and the Pacific and these are the safest ports they have with the easiest access to the open ocean close to their core. Regardless if the water freezes or not.

    The Russians do not need to challenge another surface navy. Merely to have expeditionary capabilities and to conduct sea denial operations.
    You seem to think it would cost a lot of money for Russia to build a couple of battlecruisers and LHDs. Yet you ignore that the UK, a country with less than half the population of Russia with much less natural resources, have two STOBAR carriers and six Type 45 destroyers. Heck even Italy has two carriers. If you think that Russia has less industrial power than either of those countries you are either misinformed or delusional. Europe is not a threat.

    With regards to Ukraine several people in Russia think the government should have put Viktor Yanukovych back into power with armed strength. Well I think what Russia did was quite genius really. They got the parts they wanted out of it and are leaving the rest to collapse by itself. Ukraine has been more double than necessary for a long time. The Russians have had import substitution programs for several decades already. I doubt they will let it join NATO though. They might let it join the EU.
     
    #130 gelgoog, Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019

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