Z-20 (all variants) thread

Heliox said:

No worries, I wasn't thinking that ground level was the tree line on the knoll in the back. If you follow the rope to where it actually goes into the scrub - Chopper is in a hover less than 10m actual.

Slight stretch on my part about the handful of meters but it's close enough. Highest I've jumped out of a helo (onto land) is about 3+m (~10 ft). PLF comes in useful.

Seriously, if it's rappel training, for all the effort to get the helo there, do it high or else fast rope already. Considering fuel burn, max out your guys on rope. It takes a ton of time for one guy to descend, get off rope, clear out and for the next guy to clip on and step out.

View attachment 77197

The progression for rappel training is to go from a tower to what you see in the picture above, max ropes out a 100ft altitude with safety belayers. Then you proceed to operational insertion - no safety, possibly rope bags, night, etc.

Nothing like the original posted pic.

Anyway, will love to have some context for what is happening in that pic but otherwise, I'll leave it here and we'll agree to disagree.

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My point is that there's probably a pretty reasonable explanation for your questions.

Either it's because the height of the helicopter from the ground is higher than you see, or that and a combination of they're rappeling because they're doing so at that height because it's part of their syllabus.

I think you're going to find it a hard sell to argue that the only reasonable method to train for helicopter rappeling is to start from a tower and then go from a 100ft altitude with nothing in between, and your seemingly massive surprise and gobsmacked tone seems a bit disproportionate.

el pueblo unido said:

Bad camera work is all, not the first time and certainly won't be the last time.
here this video shows how the SOF unit trains at least

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So the guys in the original picture are SOF?
Well if they are, then that probably explains it as those guys do "weird stuff".

That said, in my limited knowledge, I only know of my Navy counterparts doing that but never at such low heights. These guys are neither navy and they are at fast rope height ...

Bltizo said:

My point is that there's probably a pretty reasonable explanation for your questions.

Either it's because the height of the helicopter from the ground is higher than you see, or that and a combination of they're rappeling because they're doing so at that height because it's part of their syllabus.

I think you're going to find it a hard sell to argue that the only reasonable method to train for helicopter rappeling is to start from a tower and then go from a 100ft altitude with nothing in between, and your seemingly massive surprise and gobsmacked tone seems a bit disproportionate.

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Yes, I was hoping that there is a reasonable explanation for the picture. The only reasonable explanation is SOF, which didn't cross my mind initially cos they didn't "look" like operators. Are they?

Re the rest of your post, that's my point and the reason behind the "gobsmacked" tone, it's not a hard sell. Gotta explain where I'm coming from ...

My limited military service is in air assault (and amphib ops) and in my limited exchange with other militaries, this is how pretty much how it is done. Ground (exactly 0ft) to Tower (approx 40~50ft) to Helo (approx 80~100ft) in sticks of 4 troopers per.

I've been told that physiologically, past 40ft, there is no difference to our depth perception and if you can get past 40ft, all other heights above that shouldn't make much difference.

So yes, tower to helo @100ft with nothing in between because the Tower will have drilled all procedures into you and wrung the fear of heights out of you.

Caveat, that is if we're talking about the same thing, that is "train for helicopter rappeling" for the cannon fodder troops, the GI.

The picture in contention is in no way heli rappel training for GI. If it is, I remain gobsmacked.

You cannot hope to train a Bn of grunts, one at a time, in this manner (incremental heights on a live helo) and not break the bank. Single rappel rope off of a helo is really socom territory.

Neither is there operational sense in conducting air assault in this manner other than in ops that are in socom playbook. Even then, the only scenario I know where this makes senses is VBSS but these guys aren't navy?

So yes, in that sense you are right, there is probably a logical explanation for this and inquiring minds (mine) will seriously like to know.

Or it's just simply a f-ed up posed PR shot.

Okay, gotta keep my word. I'll let it drop.

Heliox said:

Yes, I was hoping that there is a reasonable explanation for the picture. The only reasonable explanation is SOF, which didn't cross my mind initially cos they didn't "look" like operators. Are they?

Re the rest of your post, that's my point and the reason behind the "gobsmacked" tone, it's not a hard sell. Gotta explain where I'm coming from ...

My limited military service is in air assault (and amphib ops) and in my limited exchange with other militaries, this is how pretty much how it is done. Ground (exactly 0ft) to Tower (approx 40~50ft) to Helo (approx 80~100ft) in sticks of 4 troopers per.

I've been told that physiologically, past 40ft, there is no difference to our depth perception and if you can get past 40ft, all other heights above that shouldn't make much difference.

So yes, tower to helo @100ft with nothing in between because the Tower will have drilled all procedures into you and wrung the fear of heights out of you.

Caveat, that is if we're talking about the same thing, that is "train for helicopter rappeling" for the cannon fodder troops, the GI.

The picture in contention is in no way heli rappel training for GI. If it is, I remain gobsmacked.

You cannot hope to train a Bn of grunts, one at a time, in this manner (incremental heights on a live helo) and not break the bank. Single rappel rope off of a helo is really socom territory.

Neither is there operational sense in conducting air assault in this manner other than in ops that are in socom playbook. Even then, the only scenario I know where this makes senses is VBSS but these guys aren't navy?

So yes, in that sense you are right, there is probably a logical explanation for this and inquiring minds (mine) will seriously like to know.

Or it's just simply a f-ed up posed PR shot.

Okay, gotta keep my word. I'll let it drop.

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The photoset this particular picture was part of, was not taken from a regular qualification exercise or training for rappelling off helicopters, it was part of a larger unit exercise, and the context for specific pictures are not given.



As for how strange or not this particular rappelling picture is, the way I see it, no matter how high this helicopter actually is -- even if this picture was part of a routine qualification training -- it would hardly be the oddest thing that the PLAGF's regular practices are with regards to infantry.
There are more than a few aspects of PLA infantry kit and training that are probably strange if not outright confusing to foreign military forces, partly a reflection of the burgeoning evolving role in which PLAGF infantry have played (until recently), and part of it because substantial amounts of kit and hardware taken for granted by other foreign military forces for a couple of decades only started to be proliferated in the PLAGF in any number recently.

Heliox said:

PLA really needs to relook their whole PR policy of publicity photos being posed by people without a clue. The optics presented by this pic is seriously bad ... makes no bloody sense and is downright laughable.

The height is low enough that a handful more metres lower and you can just jump down.
The height is ideal for fast rope but instead they rappel.
They have troopers queuing up in the cabin and they rappel off a single rope ... it's gonna take many agonising minutes to process this lot rappeling down a single rope. A single fast rope will take <1 minute.

I have no idea wtf is happening here in this pic. Anyone?

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Fast roping onto the face of a hill, with vegetation obscuring the ground itself, seems like a high probability way to get some leg/ankle injuries.

In operations very rarely will a couple minutes disembarking make any sort of difference, but a guy injuring himself from a needlessly rapid descent will at best mean the squad is down a guy as the helicopter needs to take him right back for medical treatment (with all the additional delay that will cause), but could cause much more serious issues and potentially encumber his teammates with a casualty right off the bat if medevac was not possible.

I am sure I don’t need remind you that a needless fast roping injury was what started the whole black hawk down disaster.

As the seals love to say, slow is steady and steady is fast. Not everything needs to be Hollywood flashy all the time.

plawolf said:

Fast roping onto the face of a hill, with vegetation obscuring the ground itself, seems like a high probability way to get some leg/ankle injuries.

In operations very rarely will a couple minutes disembarking make any sort of difference, but a guy injuring himself from a needlessly rapid descent will at best mean the squad is down a guy as the helicopter needs to take him right back for medical treatment (with all the additional delay that will cause), but could cause much more serious issues and potentially encumber his teammates with a casualty right off the bat if medevac was not possible.

I am sure I don’t need remind you that a needless fast roping injury was what started the whole black hawk down disaster.

As the seals love to say, slow is steady and steady is fast. Not everything needs to be Hollywood flashy all the time.

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Per what Blitzo and I posted earlier, the LZ is right at the bottom of the frame. It's flat ground.

Don't disagree with the rest of your post (except the BHD one, reserve comment on that)

Z-20 armed version.

KampfAlwin said:

Z-20 armed version.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450701940749336587

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can you post that picture please? Ist seems I am blocked by this poster…

Basically they just added a domestic version of ESSS (External Store Support System) to Z20 so that it can carry tons of missiles, rockets, cannon and fuel tank. What is more interesting is : Have they upgraded the engine, seeing that they have revised the gas exhaust tube facing upward.

China had experimented with ESSS on their S-70C-2 Black Hawk a long time ago, so this development was only to be expected.
I am looking towards a dedicated heavy attack helicopter based on Z20.

A very old photo of PLA Aviation S-70C-2 with Chinese versiion of ESSS.

KampfAlwin said:

Z-20 armed version.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450701940749336587

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A PAVE HAWK type setup with door-mounted 12.7mm gatling would get me excited more than that...