Are the MTU diesels and Stirling AIPs the reasons why production has so far remain in 13-15 subs? I mean is it because dependence on foreign key components again (German, this time) putting a halt on an entire class of weapons? Also, are the Yuan Sirling AIPs designed domestically by the Chinese, or are also imported/copied?
Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
SamuraiBlue
Captain
The last time I checked diesel engines are much less sophisticated then top of the line jet engines with less demand to the material they use, so are the Stirling engines so I can't see why PRC would have any problem reverse engineering the ones they have to create duplicates.
I believe the propulsion of the 039A class and its advanced variants all use domestically produced diesels, either licensed or reverse engineered.
Furthermore what do you mean by "why production has so far remain in 13-15 subs"? That is already quite a large number of submarines and they are producing more every year. The issue is that it is difficult to identify new submarines because of operational security -- but there are enough indicators by people who take photos that new submarines are most certainly still being produced, currently the variant dubbed 039C.
You make it sound like that there is some sort of production bottleneck that everyone has agreed on, when the situation is far from that case.
True, but also remember that for the Type-52C destroyers, the Shaanxi license produce the MTU diesels in China.
SamuraiBlue
Captain
SSNs are more noisier then SSKs since the nuclear reactor requires constant coolants to be circulated requiring the pumps to moving even during idle times. SSKs on batteries mode is very quite since it only requires electric motors, the only thing that generates a relatively large noise.
The SSNs has superior speed over SSKs as well as endurance and more auxiliary power that can be power more powerful sensors.
Even the diesel engine if properly mounted will leak very little noise if counter measures are taken. It may sound very loud standing next to it but the noise that is propagating within the area room can be dampened if proper procedures are taken to stop resonance of the hull which works like a "Bell" ringing.
This can be said the same with SSNs but it's a lot more complicated since the coolants are connected to the sea through secondary cooling systems which dumps the heat into the sea via sea water used as secondary coolants.
Yes this is what I am suspecting. Because if the 039B/Cs are really as advanced, meet the PLA's operation demands, and are zero percent reliant on foreign propulsion and battery technologies, we should have these boats being lay down like making sausages. Plus steel and other metal components are dirt cheap in China right now. Thus, if it isn't reliance on foreign key components, now it is best time for massive ship building. Nevertheless, if the shipyards are still reliant on key foreign components, then no matter how cheap steel is in China, we won't be able to see "sausage making" soon. I am just speculating. Finally, it is a safe bet to say that a 039C is probably much cheaper than a Virginia Class. Therefore, if Beijing wants a real A2/AD force, a fleet of 100+ 039B/Cs would be a real nightmare for the U.S. and Japanese navies. I am talking about maybe pitting 2-3 Yuans against every Virginia or Soryu, especially since the input materials (like steel) are so cheap in China now. Since we are not seeing that, I am guessing maybe it is because the Yuan is not 100% based on domestic inputs, so the PLAN shipyards must wait for the foreign inputs. 15 subs are a lot of subs, but don't you think this is small number for China given how many potential rivals it has to deal with?
SamuraiBlue
Captain
First off there are various grade in steel in which the grade used for subs are much more expensive and hard to crate then normal steel.
Second fabricating this grade of steel is quite difficult in which it takes a special set of skills to making them so most ship builders are not capable of manufacturing the hulls of a sub.
Third, even if the cost of material is cheap as you say, the electronics are quite expensive.
Last and most important, you just can't place any sailor into a sub and expect them to work efficiently as if they were on a surface ship. It requires a special psychological adaptability to be able to function socially as a crew within an enclosed space 24/7 for a prolong period of time. Many wash out of sub school for that very reason. It also takes a hell of a long time to train people in those environments as well required to be able to manage multitasks, that is why the US Navy gives them a special badge once they finish training like paratroopers.
Second fabricating this grade of steel is quite difficult in which it takes a special set of skills to making them so most ship builders are not capable of manufacturing the hulls of a sub.
Third, even if the cost of material is cheap as you say, the electronics are quite expensive.
Last and most important, you just can't place any sailor into a sub and expect them to work efficiently as if they were on a surface ship. It requires a special psychological adaptability to be able to function socially as a crew within an enclosed space 24/7 for a prolong period of time. Many wash out of sub school for that very reason. It also takes a hell of a long time to train people in those environments as well required to be able to manage multitasks, that is why the US Navy gives them a special badge once they finish training like paratroopers.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
That's just silly reasoning.
You are suggestion, with zero back up or even reasonable justification, that China needs 100+ advanced SSKs, and then using the fact that China isn't pumping SSKs out "like sausages" to justify your unfounded argument for some bottleneck that no one else has ever noticed or mentioned.
15 boats is just the number of Yuans, that we know of. They also have a dozen Kilos and 13 Songs.
That's more than enough for A2/AD, especially given the number of ASW dedicated 056s, other major surface combatants and MPAs they are also fielding.
SSKs are ambush animals. They don't have the speed or endurance to go chasing after surface ships or enemy SSNs. That inherent limitation caps their usefulness for general ASW work, which is why China is putting more emphasis on sub hunting 056s and MPAs.
Even if China is slowing or stopping Yuan production, which has never been conclusively established, it would be because they feel they have enough boats to meet their current needs, and are waiting on the next gen SSK and/or SSN. No point blowing your budget on getting more Yuans than you need when something much better is just over the horizon.
You have to look at creating a sustainable industrial base for a submarine class.
China can only sustain a maximum of 2 conventional boats per year, because that means a fleet of 60 submarines as they typically have a 30 year service life. Note that the Chinese conventional submarine fleet is already near that number.
And note that China also has a nuclear submarine programme, which is likely running at 1 boat per year at the current time. That means another 30 boats eventually, although some of these will be ballistic missile submarines.
So end strength would be a minimum of 90 submarines in the future? That should be more than enough to be a deterrent, and remember that excessive defense spending takes away money from internal development for the hundreds of millions of poor peasants in the Chinese interior.
The Yuan was offered for export to Thailand at $1billion for 3 boats, so yes, it is significantly cheaper than a Virginia which is $1.8-$2.6 billion for a single boat.
Mass-producing submarines is somewhat different for surface ships, as submarine construction skills are pretty much unique. And you can't accept anything less than perfection because problems on a submarine can have severe consequences, whereas problems on a surface ship don't result in them sinking. So it takes time to gear up the infrastructure and skills to build submarines.