WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos
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Jura The idiot
General
Moving onwards a bit, I do feel that the IJN in WW2 were fighting the wrong war when they transformed the Mogamis into heavy cruisers.
Ultimately, the pacific war was not about lines of battle ship where the extra range of the 10X 200mm (8") make ups for the volume of fire offered by the 15X 155mm (6.1") especially for anti air.
Back to the River plate, the Graf Spree is a beautiful ship; I wonder what if she had fought it out?
The Hippers, btw were very beautiful ships.
Jura The idiot
General
How are you, Lezt?
you mean if the Admiral Graf Spee had tried to break out of Montevideo right after the deadline? then I think she'd have succeeded, but spent the remaining 11" shells ... but where are you going to sail (I was thinking about it a moment ago when taking shower
feel free to correct me)?
1. from the direction Europe, Force H (carrier + 15") coming
2. in the Indian Ocean: Force J (carrier + 15") -- the idea would be to get to Italian Somaliland
3. in the Pacific -- the idea would be to get to Japan: no friendly replenishment ships, I guess
4. "hiding" in some Latin America country like Chile maybe?
your choice, Lezt, anybody? LOL
you mean if the Admiral Graf Spee had tried to break out of Montevideo right after the deadline? then I think she'd have succeeded, but spent the remaining 11" shells ... but where are you going to sail (I was thinking about it a moment ago when taking shower
feel free to correct me)?1. from the direction Europe, Force H (carrier + 15") coming
2. in the Indian Ocean: Force J (carrier + 15") -- the idea would be to get to Italian Somaliland
3. in the Pacific -- the idea would be to get to Japan: no friendly replenishment ships, I guess
4. "hiding" in some Latin America country like Chile maybe?
your choice, Lezt, anybody? LOL
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How are you, Lezt?
you mean if the Admiral Graf Spee had tried to break out of Montevideo right after the deadline? then I think she'd have succeeded, but spent the remaining 11" shells ... but where are you going to sail (I was thinking about it a moment ago when taking shower
1. from the direction Europe, Force H (carrier + 15") coming
2. in the Indian Ocean: Force J (carrier + 15") -- the idea would be to get to Italian Somaliland
3. in the Pacific -- the idea would be to get to Japan: no friendly replenishment ships, I guess
4. "hiding" in some Latin America country like Chile maybe?
your choice, Lezt, anybody? LOL
Lets put my armchair general hat on,
Graf Spee had a fuel issue, so she needed major repairs. The USA was still neutral....
I would have broken out of Montevideo before the deadline where the allies were least expecting. Move to Argentina for some more extensive repairs... Lure the british to send ships to guard her as a fleet in presence and convince the UK with real and fake reports of submarines heading to relief her.
Its a question of Chesapeake being bottled up in Boston; what surface units can the british home fleet spare that can have a good chance of resisting the 11" guns and would not leave the home isles vulnerable? And any ship capable of defeating the Graf Spee would be very vulnerable to submarines.
i.e. if the british spends significant force to guard the Graf Spee, they will allow the Kriegsmarine to sortie their destroyers, battleships, cruisers much more effectively.
Jura The idiot
General
interesting comments again, Lezt ... my choice also was to get to Argentina ASAP, but I didn't say that and actually hoped you'd suggest something more adventurous LOL ... several points:
1. since I think the 11" shells would've been spent during the breakout ... do you think it was possible at that time (beginning of 1940) to secretly deliver them to Argentina? by land to Italy, to ship them to Spain, and ask General Franco maybe?
2. you mentioned the Home Fleet only ... but we're talking 1939 so the Force de Raid would've been involved, too (by the way, did you know the Strasbourg also headed South at the time of the Battle of the River Plate? I didn't, thought she had waited in Dakar for the case if ...)
3. do you think it was possible to persuade Brazil to declare war on Germany then? I thought Brazil had joined the Allies in 1943, but in fact it happened according to wiki
... the point would be to get bases closer to Buenos Aires than the Falklands ... or would it be possible Argentina give up on the Germans? I admit I don't know politics of that region at that time (OK, I've watched the Evita musical
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Admiral Graf Spee had been hit approximately 70 times with the loss of 36 men and some 60 more were wounded, including Captain Langsdorff, who had been wounded twice by splinters while standing on the open bridge.
As a result of battle damage and casualties, Langsdorff decided to put into Montevideo for repairs and to bury the dead and tend to the wounded. Most of the hits scored by the British cruisers caused only minor structural and superficial damage, however the oil purification plant, which was required to prepare the diesel fuel for the engines, was destroyed. Her desalination plant and galley were also destroyed, which would have increased the difficulty of a return to Germany. Additionally there was a hit on the bow which would have negatively affected her seaworthiness in the heavy seas of the North Atlantic, had she returned. Most importantly the Admiral Graf Spee had fired much of its ammunition in the engagement with the British cruisers.
British naval intelligence worked very hard to convince Langsdorff that vastly superior forces were concentrating to destroy his ship, if he attempted to break out of the harbor. The Admiralty broadcast a series of signals, on frequencies known to be intercepted by German intelligence. Langsdorff was given the opportunity to seek refuge in Buenos Aires, where the Argentine government would intern the ship. Most likely repair and rearm her.
Captain Langsdorff was unwilling to risk the lives of his crew, so he decided to scuttle the ship. A crowd of 20,000 watched as the scuttling charges were set; the crew was taken off by an Argentine tug and the ship was sunk at 20:55 hours. The explosions from the remaining munitions sent jets of flame high into the air and created a large cloud of smoke that obscured the ship. My father was a young boy on holiday in Montevideo and he saw the explosions. He mentioned that all the adults were talking and nervously and that there was talk of cutting the holiday short.
As a result of battle damage and casualties, Langsdorff decided to put into Montevideo for repairs and to bury the dead and tend to the wounded. Most of the hits scored by the British cruisers caused only minor structural and superficial damage, however the oil purification plant, which was required to prepare the diesel fuel for the engines, was destroyed. Her desalination plant and galley were also destroyed, which would have increased the difficulty of a return to Germany. Additionally there was a hit on the bow which would have negatively affected her seaworthiness in the heavy seas of the North Atlantic, had she returned. Most importantly the Admiral Graf Spee had fired much of its ammunition in the engagement with the British cruisers.
British naval intelligence worked very hard to convince Langsdorff that vastly superior forces were concentrating to destroy his ship, if he attempted to break out of the harbor. The Admiralty broadcast a series of signals, on frequencies known to be intercepted by German intelligence. Langsdorff was given the opportunity to seek refuge in Buenos Aires, where the Argentine government would intern the ship. Most likely repair and rearm her.
Captain Langsdorff was unwilling to risk the lives of his crew, so he decided to scuttle the ship. A crowd of 20,000 watched as the scuttling charges were set; the crew was taken off by an Argentine tug and the ship was sunk at 20:55 hours. The explosions from the remaining munitions sent jets of flame high into the air and created a large cloud of smoke that obscured the ship. My father was a young boy on holiday in Montevideo and he saw the explosions. He mentioned that all the adults were talking and nervously and that there was talk of cutting the holiday short.
interesting comments again, Lezt ... my choice also was to get to Argentina ASAP, but I didn't say that and actually hoped you'd suggest something more adventurous LOL ... several points:
1. since I think the 11" shells would've been spent during the breakout ... do you think it was possible at that time (beginning of 1940) to secretly deliver them to Argentina? by land to Italy, to ship them to Spain, and ask General Franco maybe?
2. you mentioned the Home Fleet only ... but we're talking 1939 so the Force de Raid would've been involved, too (by the way, did you know the Strasbourg also headed South at the time of the Battle of the River Plate? I didn't, thought she had waited in Dakar for the case if ...)
3. do you think it was possible to persuade Brazil to declare war on Germany then? I thought Brazil had joined the Allies in 1943, but in fact it happened according to wiki ... the point would be to get bases closer to Buenos Aires than the Falklands ... or would it be possible Argentina give up on the Germans? I admit I don't know politics of that region at that time (OK, I've watched the Evita musical
I think so, the intent is to keep her as a force in being, I won't worry about the Force de Raid much as the german high command knew the invasion of France is coming - if they succeed, the french navy will cease to exist, if they fail, they might as well surrender.
the Graf spee should be able to be resupplied by sea, the germans did it in WW1 with the blockade running submarines and german uboats have no issues running up and down the US east coast. Similarly, ww2 germany might be able to borrow some subs from italy which came at a later date, but existing VII boats can carry some goods for the Graf spee.
Given the era, a few torpedos can really convince a pursing force to break contact, hence I do believe that a few U-boat will weigh heavily in any blocking captains mind.
Jura The idiot
General
well, in general terms they knew, but I suppose you know the twists in planning of the Falb Gelb ...
yeah but it's unlikely the subs would've delivered the 11" shells I originally asked about
here I agree keeping in mind