why does the west still refuse to sell china weapons?

duskylim said:

Nonetheless, China sees the US/European Arms Embargo as a form of discrimination and an irritant to normal relations - something that is usually imposed upon 'pariah' nations such as Iran, North Korea and until recently Iraq.

The issue is not that of trade and finance per se, but rather more subtly, one of 'status' or if you like - mutual respect - China wishes to be treated as a full and equal partner, not one that must constantly seek the West's approval.

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The arms embargo also applies to US. That hasn't prevented PRC from being the biggest holder of US Treasury bills.

As for arms embargo of "pariah" states, if you haven't noticed, which country is a "pariah" state is a highly selective process. Egypt operates western military hardware. Heck, even Iran operates F-14 Tomcats (the only foreign operator of F-14s to date).

And no, I'm not an expat in Singapore.

As for PRC wanting to be treated as an equal, they remain the only Asian country in the UN Security Council with veto power. They are also a member of WTO, WHO, APEC, East Asia Summit, SCO, ASEAN + 3, ADMM, etc.

There are also strategic dialogues between US and PRC. Which countries such as Russia don't have with the US (or PRC for that matter). PRC's voting share in IMF is now also amongst the largest in the world.

With all these, how is it that PRC is not equal or more influential than most western countries?

The EU appears to be considering lifting its Arms Embargo against the PRC, but this seems driven more by a realisation that the embargo is only generating new and effective competition against European Defence Technology companies as the many areas of gap are rapidly closed.

If it ends now, there is still some possibility of sales but the response from the PRC is not exactly enthusiastic, suggesting that they prefer to develop their domestic capabilities.

duskylim said:

I acknowledge that the EU is indeed China's largest trading partner (and trade between the two entities is growing fast).

Nonetheless, China sees the US/European Arms Embargo as a form of discrimination and an irritant to normal relations - something that is usually imposed upon 'pariah' nations such as Iran, North Korea and until recently Iraq.

The issue is not that of trade and finance per se, but rather more subtly, one of 'status' or if you like - mutual respect - China wishes to be treated as a full and equal partner, not one that must constantly seek the West's approval.

It is not unlike the way Chinese merchants are and were treated in Western colonial enclaves like Hong Kong, Macau and indeed Singapore - though they were responsible for most of the trade and enterprise they remained very much 'second-class' citizens.

The fact that you are blissfully unaware of this sentiment suggests to me you an ex-pat residing in Singapore.

Clearly the West at every opportunity seeks to preserve its distance and feeling of superiority over various 'inferior' races.

It must come as a rude shock that some European countries are now going hat-in-hand to seek monetary aid from China.

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Interesting, duskylim you provide a good argument, one which I intend to agree with.

Of course another large aspect of the embargo is the human rights/democracy argument, in which the justification of the embargo is that china continuously violates human rights and doesn't have democracy (etc).

I wonder if the consideration of lifting the embargo is that the EU is beginning to understand human rights and democracy doesn't matter that much anymore... The human rights/democracy aspect can also be linked to the whole race superiority/inferiority idea in which one supposedly has the moral high ground and the better political system etc.

SampanViking said:

The EU appears to be considering lifting its Arms Embargo against the PRC, but this seems driven more by a realisation that the embargo is only generating new and effective competition against European Defence Technology companies as the many areas of gap are rapidly closed.

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I think it's because they realise the embargo didn't really hinder the PRC's military, and now the EU had missed out on big business -- now even if they do cut the embargo there's not a lot the PLA will want out of them.
Even if the EU lifts the embargo now it won't make the competitive gap any smaller...

If it ends now, there is still some possibility of sales but the response from the PRC is not exactly enthusiastic, suggesting that they prefer to develop their domestic capabilities.

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I can just imagine a few specialized electronics and maybe helicopters. Everything else PRC is self sufficient in, or has a good source for already.

Let's stop giving value to something that has become meaningless. If the EU lifts the embargo with this much fanfare, it is like expecting to be rewarded for coming over the hill to the rescue after the massacre has already happened. They'll expect something in return for something that will only be a meaningless symbolic gesture.

I think it is pretty obvious the reason the EU isn't selling military technologies to China is US pressure. That won't suddenly change for 2011.

Ambivalent said:

I think it is pretty obvious the reason the EU isn't selling military technologies to China is US pressure. That won't suddenly change for 2011.

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I agree, but I also think that the entire structure of EU is on the verge of collapsing with this economic crisis. As this happens, it is more likely that in the future this arms embargo will no longer be determined as a whole but rather by individual countries. In reality, only UK is really really against it. France, Italy and Spain would all be in favour.

Also, I think US is completely missing the point with this insistence on maintaining the embargo. EU lifting the embargo would actually not help PLA that much. The damage is already done from civilian cooperation. Civilian cooperation have helped lift Chinese industries to a level where they can develop and produce products. What we have seen in the past 10 years in PLA modernization is caused by increasing competitiveness of domestic firm. Another part is the export of dual use technology like sonar, propulsion unit and helicopters. On top of that, what has helped Chinese domestic industry is increased RnD spent on domestic projects.

The same US embargo on space technology have also just strengthened Europe's space industry and China's space industry and have hurted American companies.

tphuang said:

I agree, but I also think that the entire structure of EU is on the verge of collapsing with this economic crisis. As this happens, it is more likely that in the future this arms embargo will no longer be determined as a whole but rather by individual countries. In reality, only UK is really really against it. France, Italy and Spain would all be in favour.

Also, I think US is completely missing the point with this insistence on maintaining the embargo. EU lifting the embargo would actually not help PLA that much. The damage is already done from civilian cooperation. Civilian cooperation have helped lift Chinese industries to a level where they can develop and produce products. What we have seen in the past 10 years in PLA modernization is caused by increasing competitiveness of domestic firm. Another part is the export of dual use technology like sonar, propulsion unit and helicopters. On top of that, what has helped Chinese domestic industry is increased RnD spent on domestic projects.

The same US embargo on space technology have also just strengthened Europe's space industry and China's space industry and have hurted American companies.

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There is an awful lot of material science that right now is restricted to the military that China has no access to. In another thread there is some talk of a hypersonic air breather supposedly soon to appear from China. We have flown hypersonic test vehicles for many decades in the US, as far back as the X-15, and including a number of interesting test articles, but there remain even today some major hurdles in terms of material science and other technologies before a hypersonic vehicle can be made reliable enough and inexpensive enough to be mass produced as a weapon. China to my knowledge has never even demonstrated a hypersonic test vehicle. I don't mean a model on a stand at some arms expo or airshow, but actual hardware flown in an operationally relevant environment. What could they know? Whatever it is, they have to learn it from foreigners for now, and that is a big part of the point of the embargo.
China saves money by stealing our engineering and material science. Everyone in the business knows this. The embargo slows down the acquisition of advanced technologies drives up the cost of their weapons by forcing them to do their own research and that cuts into what they can afford to buy in a major way.
The Europeans have no skin in the game, only the US and Japan are faced with the prospect of a military confrontation with China. But the EU depends on the US for quite a few military capabilities they lack, and the US forces them to choose sides. None of this suddenly changes with the change of the calendar.
The EU folding it's tent? Laughable. The west only looks on the verge of falling apart because we don't censor our critics like many other non-western nations do. There is a basic strength in the ownership of property, a free press and elected government that you greatly underestimate. People in a democracy have a stake in their politicians and their policies, which is not the case in authoritarian regimes. When you hear vocal critics in a dictatorship, you know the government is in trouble. When you hear critics in a democracy, all is well.

1- Being forced to R&D your own system offers the advantage of being able to innovate at the same time, since you understand the underlying principles instead of simply buying an existing piece of technology.

2- The Chinese government's mandate is dependent on the continuing improvement of quality of life for the Chinese people. Western democracy governments have no such mandate, and that really, is the sad part.

Ambivalent said:

The Europeans have no skin in the game, only the US and Japan are faced with the prospect of a military confrontation with China. But the EU depends on the US for quite a few military capabilities they lack, and the US forces them to choose sides. None of this suddenly changes with the change of the calendar.

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What you said is true. However, various EU governments are also under domestic pressure to revive their economy (same pressure the Obama administration faces). The Obama administration chose the route of pressuring PRC on the yuan exchange rate. Don't see the Europeans following that path (Germany happens to be a critic of that actually).

Hence, lifting the arms embargo is an option that they have to realistically consider. And precisely because they "have no skin in the game", that makes it a more possible avenue to pursue.

Ambivalent said:

The EU folding it's tent? Laughable. The west only looks on the verge of falling apart because we don't censor our critics like many other non-western nations do.

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Perhaps.

Depends on how the financial crisis turns out. A few more downgrades of sovereign debts in the EU (Spain, Portugal, Italy?), continued economic contraction (the European governments are not pump-priming their economies) and see how well the Union fares.

such things also feel annoy .. why do they does some kinda thing with China ?what's the point in doing this ?